Italy: British subject born there

[bushlyme]

I am trying to find the birth name of a female born in Italy (allegedly) on 2 January 1905. Her mother was probably English but could have been American by marriage and she could have been registered under any 1 of 3 different surnames. I do not know where in Italy she was born. Consular records have produced nothing. I know it sounds impossible, but if anyone can suggest a way forward I should be extremely grateful.

George

[jorose]

If she was born overseas, according to British law at the time, her nationality would depend on that of her father. A child born in Italy to an English mother and an American father would not be considered a British subject.

Take this family, for example:

Nationality and Naturalisation: Roberts, Jessie Morrell, from United States of America. Resident in Shotter Mill, Linchmere,Sussex. Certificate B110 issued 19 April 1916. Readmission. Roberts, Constance Evelyn, child of Jessie Morrell Roberts. Roberts, Jean Morrell, child of Jessie Morrell Roberts.

Jessie Morrell Roberts was born in England - she was married to an American, George O Roberts, and the two girls were born in the US. This naturalisation record is marked 'readmission' because it relates to a woman who had lost her status as a British subject through marriage.

On the reverse side - if Jessie Morrell Roberts had been James Morrell Roberts, who had gone to the US, married an American woman, and then returned a few years later - there would be no naturalisation record (presuming that he hadn't naturalised in the US). The children would be considered British as well.


Where to look for your relative will depend a bit on where they went after her birth - did she move with her mother back to England or America or was she raised in Italy? There might have been a baptism after her mother came 'home', wherever that was at the time.

Other possibilities:
Shipping records, particularly if they went to the US (harder if they went to the UK as they didn't keep incoming records for ships from Europe)
If you know why they were in Italy - family, work, etc - it might be possible to work out where in Italy the birth was likely to have occurred.

[bushlyme]

Thanks for the reply. Actually, the problem is much more complicated than I first indicated.

The child concerned was Violet Winterfeldt, ostensibly the daughter of Hans Winterfeldt and Louise Druce, who married some time between 9 December 1903 and 17 January 1906. However, in her Will, Louise states that she [they?] adopted Violet, whose original surname was Fortescue.

Hans was a wealthy international banker born in Berlin. He moved to New York in 1899 and became an American citizen on 8 July 1909.  Prior to that date, Louise was usually shown as German in Passenger Lists, where they appeared frequently. Violet was also said to be a German National on her first appearance in a Passenger List. Once Hans was naturalised, they were always shown as American.

There are no records of Hans or Louise arriving in New York from Italy; it is always from the U.K. or France. It is sheer speculation on my part, but could the fact that Hans apparently failed to father any children in any of his three marriages be significant?

I have been unable to find Violet’s birth under any of her 3 possible names, including in British Consular records. Nor have I been able to find a birth record for Louise Druce. Louise also mentions an Annie Druce of Huntingdon, England, in her Will, which, interestingly, appoints an English solicitor as executor and trustee even though it was drawn up in Paris and deemed to be subject to New York law. This is why I believe Louise to be English by birth.

I am afraid this is all rather long-winded, but I have condensed it as much as possible without omitting any necessary facts. So, as before, any suggestions as to how I should proceed would be most welcome.

George

[jorose]

It wouldn't be surprising to me for the major lines to go from Havre, Liverpool, etc; 'feeder' ships ran from other destinations in Europe to the big ports for transatlantic travel.

The passenger lists are interesting, particularly 1912 into Ellis Island. Here, Villa Cote d'Azur, Nice is given as their 'home' address (putting them close to the border with Italy), although they sailed from Liverpool.  In this record, they are both listed as born England, Louise in Wingfield and Violet in Lynton.

In 1909 Louise and Violet are both listed as born New York, when they arrive together with Hans.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F6WC-P84 - now, could this be the marriage?  Note the parents of Louise : Arthur and Sarah 'Culberhouse'.  (In addition: Louisa Franks, married, aged 40, arrived on the same ship as Hans Winterfeldt, aged 32, in May 1905 - aboard the Saint Paul).

Now for this family in 1881:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ71-WLH
and the christenings of Frank (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J385-39Q ) and Annie Louise (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1TD-3G8 )
Arthur Hill Druce married Sarah Fortescue in 1861 (freebmd.rootsweb.com)
Sarah Culverhouse married Thomas Fortescue in 1854.

So if Louise 'Franks' who married in 1905 was the same as Annie Louise daughter of Arthur Hill Druce and Sarah nee Culverhouse, she had a connection to the Fortuescue family through stepbrother Frank.

In 1871, Annie Louise is with her Druce grandparents - she had an aunt, Annie Druce, who was 19 in 1871, perhaps the same as mentioned in her will?  There were also two younger children - Helena Maria, born 1865 died 1879, and Arthur John, born about 1868 Windsor, Berkshire.

I'm fairly sure these younger siblings were the siblings of this Annie Louise as at http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search , Arthur Hill Druce's death/estate is mentioned along with Arthur John Druce

In addition, regarding the Annie Druce who was 19 in 1871 (so about 1852), there is in 1910 a 54 year old Miss Annie Druce (born Kingston, Surrey), last residence in the UK with a Mrs Crussell in Huntingdon, heading to her relative, Mrs Winterfeldt, in New York.


It seems possible that Violet was Annie Louise/Louise's niece, through one of her stepbrothers.  Have you seen the Ellis Island entry where she is listed separate from Hans and Louise, as 'Winterfield Fortescue' (no first name) in 1906?

[bushlyme]

Now why didn't I think of Ellis Island??? I had found Arthur Hill Druce  but had not made the connection, even though in the 1901 census there are 2 Fortescues as well as Annie Druce living with Mr and Mrs Crussall. Mrs Crussall is Annie's and Arthur's sister.
I will follow up all you have found for me, and if I don't come back to this thread, please accept my sincere thanks for your help.
George

[carinthiangirl]

24. Hans Winterfeld in 1905 stated as banker also in shipmanifest:   
First Name:    Hans
Last Name:    Winterfeld
Ethnicity:    Germany, German
Last Place of Residence:    Berlin
Date of Arrival:    May 01, 1905
Age at Arrival:  32y 3m    Gender:  M    Marital Status:  M 
Ship of Travel:    Saint Paul
Port of Departure:    Southampton
Manifest Line Number:    0009
complete Winterfeld-list: http://www.ellisisland.org/search/matchMore.asp?LNM=WINTERFELD&PLNM=WINTERFELD&first_kind=1&kind=exact&offset=0&dwpdone=1

First Name:    Violet
Last Name:    Winterfeld
Ethnicity:    US Citizen
Last Place of Residence:    New York
Date of Arrival:    Oct 26, 1906
Age at Arrival:  2y    Gender:  F    Marital Status:  S 
Ship of Travel:    La Provence
Port of Departure:    Havre
Manifest Line Number:    0030
   
First Name:    Louise
Last Name:    Winterfeld
Ethnicity:    US Citizen
Last Place of Residence:    New York
Date of Arrival:    Oct 26, 1906
Age at Arrival:  35y    Gender:  F    Marital Status:  M 
Ship of Travel:    La Provence
Port of Departure:    Havre
Manifest Line Number:    0029
   
First Name:    Hans
Last Name:    Winterfeld
Ethnicity:    US Citizen
Last Place of Residence:    New York
Date of Arrival:    Oct 26, 1906
Age at Arrival:  34y    Gender:  M    Marital Status:  M 
Ship of Travel:    La Provence
Port of Departure:    Havre
Manifest Line Number:    0028
http://www.ellisisland.org/search/matchMore.asp?LNM=WINTERFELD&PLNM=WINTERFELD&first_kind=1&last_kind=0&RF=40&kind=exact&offset=25&dwpdone=1

ship-manifest - line 28, 29, 30: http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup_weif_5a.asp?src=%2Fcgi-bin%2Ftif2gif.exe%3FT%3D\\\\192.168.100.11\\IMAGES\\T715-0788\\T715-07880355.TIF%26S%3D.5&pID=800131020094&name=Hans%26nbsp%3BWinterfeld&doa=Oct+26%2C+1906&port=Havre&line=0028
interesting that at this manifest is stated "baby not on board", but then fits with manifest at before-posting of jorose. so they made a little mistake...
http://www.ellisisland.org/search/matchMore.asp?MID=16900218910064286816&LNM=WINTERFIELD+FORTESCUE&PLNM=WINTERFIELD+FORTESCUE&first_kind=1&kind=exact&offset=0&dwpdone=1
       
Last Name:    Winterfield Fortescue
Ethnicity:    England, English
Last Place of Residence:    
Date of Arrival:    Oct 26, 1906
Age at Arrival:  2y    Gender:  F    Marital Status:  S 
Ship of Travel:    La Provence
Port of Departure:    Havre
Manifest Line Number:    0019
this manifest then with baby alone in list says "is with his family"! some "kuddelmuddel" - mess/hash with the baby!

[bushlyme]

Thanks for your posting. Unfortunately I have already written this off as a lost cause. There are so many inconsistencies - deliberate or accidental - that the family is impossible to tie down.
George

[fastfusion]

In larger genealogical societies or groups where microfische collections are kept there are available microfische of the births deaths and marriages of British subjects born on foreign countries, nowadays some of those appear on find my past...   I have included a camera phone image I took of the microfische  when looking for some kin of mine.. Once u have a code similiar to BMD one applies to RO.....

[fastfusion]

I would like to add further information to this topic and say that familysearch.org is currently called for folk to transcribe data of births deaths and marriages for Italy at the moment,      and,   if as many folk who need the data from Italy were to transcribe some of those that LDS wish to do  like the co - operation that was found worldwide to do the 1940 USA Census then they will be on fs.o  a lot quicker.   At present the 1984/86 microfische of the International Genealogical Index have limited entries mainly from Consular Chapels