Missing death records

[ShirleyX]

Dunbarton MI

John Manners 21.11.1840 w Agnes Montgomery 26.4.1851
s John lost at sea ...8.1841
da Cath 18.3.1846
s Wm at Ballarat 17.1.1901 (gs John 2)

Cannot find any record of John (1840) or Agnes deaths on IGI, OPR, The Genealogist, ScotlandsPeople. I understand deaths were not always registered so how can I find out more.

I know Agnes's parents and I'm almost sure John's parents are John Manners and Helen Bull/Bole/Bolle. I have OPRs of their marriage and OPR of Johns possible birth 5.12.1789 in Glasgow.

John and Agnes were married in Dumbarton 3 Mar 1815 (OPR).

I want to be sure that I have the right parentage for John to John and Helen.

Family story suggests that John (1840) was some sort of Alderman in Dumbarton but I cannot confirm this either.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I can find out this information.

Shirley

[GrahamSimons]

Genuki is a great resource for finding resources: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/DNB/Dumbarton/

[MonicaL]

Hi Shirley

Regarding deaths for John and Agnes, you are very fortunate to have found MIs for them in Dumbarton 

If you are trying to confirm any details of John's parents, an OPR entry for a death or burial will not give you this. This kind of information was only recorded post the start of official registration in 1855. Some notes as background from SP:

www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&1353
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2016

Monica

[ShirleyX]

Thank you both

I've checked out both sites and looks like I might have to retain a researcher in the area to check out the old church records in case there is mention. I do know that John was admonished for drunkeness when he first tried to sponsor his son Robert into the church - which to me suggests he was not a town representative. Perhaps he was just trying to sound important when writing to his relatives in Australia.

Shirley

[GR2]

The 1841 census shows Agnes, aged "40", on the north side of the High Street in Dumbarton with her children, John, ship's carpenter, George, app. joiner, Charles, app chainmaker, William, app. ship's carpenter, Robert, aged 8.

In 1851 Agnes, aged 56, is in the High Street with Robert, aged 18, app. blacksmith. All are born in Dumbarton.

[ShirleyX]

GR2

Thank you. I have all the information from census for each of the family members to 1911. I'm now trying to see how far back I can go to work out when my ancestors first show up in Scotland.

To date I think I have the family going back to 1668 in Pentcaitland, though I only have one document on each generation, they seem the most likely. These are just my direct ancestors

1. James Manners m Anna Waddell 21 Oct 1668 Pentcaitland
2. John Manners m Janet Broun/Brown 21 Dec 1709 Prestopans
3. William Manners m Isabel Orr 1729 Greenock
4. John Manners m Helen Bull/Bole 1 Nov 1776 Glasgow
5. John Manners m Agnes Montgomery 3 Mar 1815 Dubarton
6. John Manners m Margaret Campbell m 6 Aug 1841 East Greenock
7. John Manners m Emma Hickox 17 Dec 1866 Nelligan NSW Aust

Trying to prove John and Helen first

Shirley

[tidybooks]

Hi ShirleyX,

Could be a typo on your John Manners marrying Anna Waddell, I have them on FreeReg in 1688 not 1668.
 Of course, it could be a typo on FreeReg but may help with other records.

County - East Lothian
Place - Pencaitland
Church - Pencaitland
MarriageDate - 21 Oct 1688
GroomForename - James
GroomSurname - MANNERS
BrideForename - Anna
BrideSurname - WADDEL
Notes - Married
FileNumber -19687

Tom

PS Just done parent search on Family Research, and looks like your 1668 is correct, 3 children of them born long time before 1688.

[ShirleyX]

Hi Tom

I noticed the discrepancy so ordered the OPR and it is definitely 1668.

If I have the right links going back it will be great to now work on extending my understanding of the various periods of history, see if I can find out what they were up to and how they lived.

My family in Australia did alright for themselves - neither rich nor destitute, but lived comfortably. I don't suppose some of my ancestors had the same lives - what with the religious uprisings and clearances etc. in Scotland. I do know that Margaret (nee Campbell) and her mother died in the poorhouse in Greenock and I'm sure they would have been proud of John in Australia making good.

Shirley

[tidybooks]

Hi Shirley,

Do you have the John Manners, who married Helen Bull/Bole, proved as a son of William Manners and Isabel Orr. On family search, there are 2 John Manners births to William and Isabel, but they die in infancy.

Tom