Walter Harold RENZ

[Unė kthimi i papenduar]

Looking for any information on George Denholm Renz born 1910 Liscard Cheshire,  his parents Walter Harold Renz, Assistant Secretary Insurance Company and Laura Emily Taylor married 14th April 1906. 1911 census have them living at 22 Studby Avenue Highland Park, Essex. In June 1915 Walter enlisted at Tyneside - address at that time 27 Queen Victoria Street, London EC. His wife was at Park Prewett Lodge, Basingstoke, Hampshire.    Walter discharged RNVL 1919 and nothing thereafter.

Walter's birth registration only has "boy" and the mother's name, a well known artiste in the circus,  but separated from her husband who had died before conception date.

Any help in finding post 1919 on these three individuals would be appreciated.

[CaroleW]

George Denholm Renz

Can you confirm middle name please

Freebmd just shows George D but 1911 index shows middle name as Denton - not Denholm

[fastfusion]

Thats amazing,     have just read the posts on various forums and seen the articles in wikipedia about the circus in germany.....     i checked ancestry and other than the 1911 census as well as the bmd entry   ....     they just dissappear......

good luck with that      as much as it must be so frustrating  gee  I hope you find them

marty

[Unė kthimi i papenduar]

Thank you for that correction - DENTON it should be.   That what comes of doing it all by memory with the paper work not at hand.    This is an exercise in trying to trace members of an old circus family (NOT RENZ) who did not carry on in the "business".

Just to brighten up the pages I have attached an image of the mother in action.

[Milliepede]

Wonder if they went to America?

There are census entries where the names seem to tie up like Laura E Renz b about 1885 on the 1930 US census in San Francisco.  Sorry I can't view the details but hopefully someone will be able to have a look and see if she is yours

[JaneyCanuck]

That looks like a really interesting surmise, Milliepede.

The 1930 US census is at familysearch and here is that entry:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XCN4-RM9

Laura is 45 and divorced, and with her is daughter Edna J Campaigne, 28, both born in California. Her father was born in Kentucky and Edna's in California.

The place of birth clashes with the 1911, but the age is consistent. Of course, there is no daughter Edna in 1911. And I can't see them in 1920 in the US.


One other slight correction - Walter Harold Renz married Laura Emily Turner (not Taylor) in 1906 - unless it was not her first marriage? And his name is entered in the index (not just the transcription at FreeBMD) twice, once as Walter Harold and once as Walter Henry.


Oh, can we have the fathers' names and other info from the Walter + Laura marriage certificate please? The fathers' names and occupations especially are important, but the address and witness names can also be useful. And of course his parents' full names from the 1882 "male" birth certificate - if you don't have that, you should get it, to try to be sure it's him; that date makes him younger than his 1911 age.


Answering my questions because I should have googled and read the other forums too (and questions here should include *all* the information!!):

"I believe his mother was Oceana Renz and have a birth registration (1882) which ties in but no name or father details. Father according to marriage registration was Ernest Renz to whom Oceana was married but who died in 1881, some 11 months before the birth, which is no doubt why there are no father details."

It ties in how - the mother's name was Oceana Gutteridge Spratte? (Note that it was fairly common for girls born "at sea" to be named Oceana, see in UK censuses e.g.) And editing re next message from the asker -- is it Spratte or Sprake?

"Father according to marriage registration was Ernest Renz to whom Oceana was married but who died in 1881, some 11 months before the birth, which is no doubt why there are no father details."

edit since we now know the name was Sprake - she was named for her mother in this case; the marriage to Renz was 1873 (she was 16):
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J4KP-MLP

[JaneyCanuck]

If there is anything to the Taylor name ...


In 1891 there are a Cassie and Charles Renz aged 26 and 31 in Hornsey, Middlesex.
They are both vocalists and were born in Philadelphia.
Since both are single, and Cassie is listed first, they seem likely to be siblings.
In 1881, Anc'y has them as Charles R Reny and Clusia Reny, 23 and 21, married, born USA, no occupations, visitors in the home of Frederick Hoare, Coal Clerk. At least that certainly looks like them.

In 1901, Cassy is visiting in a household in Hornsey that consists of:
Andrew F Taylor, 36, Tailor and Insurance Agent
Ellen, 31
Charles W, 9
Henry J, 6
Francis W, 1

It's just the combination of US-born Renz, occupation as performers and insurance agents, and surname Taylor - big coincidences?


But alternatively and closer to home -- "male Renz" was born in St George Hanover Square.

In 1881 in that very location, in St Margaret, London, we have:
Madame Renz, 24, visitor, widow, born on the ocean
Miss Renz, 7, born in Berlin
visiting a J Richardson, 30, unmarried, Justice of the Peace in Co. Antrim, Ireland, born same

Now that really is just very coincidental.

And now that I have done the googling and amended my initial post accordingly:

Could Madame Renz be Oceana Gutteridge Spratte, or is she too young?

For info, Oceana Renz married 1894 in Holborn - to Ferdinand F H R E Von Lepel?

Ferdinand Friedrich Rudolph Hugo Eduard Von Lepel, 1865 Germany?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NCY3-QZ7
His mother sounds distinctly English: Fanny Ellen Von Barnard.
Yup:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J4V8-G5P
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/ND4X-XM6

[Unė kthimi i papenduar]

There has obviously been something at the back of my mind when I first posted the query.   Too many errors in the names.

I can confirm from the marriage registration:  Laura Emily Turner father Alfred Turner
Walter Henry Reuz father Ernest Reuz (deceased) who had died some months before conception and had been separated/divorced from Oceana some years earlier.

1881 census: Madame Renz (24) with her daughter (7), Amanda Ernestina Oceana Renz ( m 3 times and died 1949 in Lindau am Bodensee. She did perform as a circus rider for a few years) were in the UK.   Madam Renz died in Nice mil huit cent, quatre-vingt-quinze.   

No doubt someone will look and find out where she was performing but that is not part of my search unless of course they can find the father? 

1901 census has Harold W with cousin Amy Rae (nee Sprake) and her other son Ernest (d1919) in St.Annes Soho.


It is post 1919 that I am interested in.

[JaneyCanuck]

Searches for people "post-xxxx" are not effective unless you know as much as there is about the people pre-xxxx. Not offering the information one has in that regard is not useful. The assumption readers will made if such information is not offered, as might be expected, is that it is not known.

(btw, surely "Reuz" is just a misreading of Renz, one that is very common when people fail to recognize an older handwritten "n" -- my ancestral surname Monck is transcribed as Mouck all the time, for example.)

You're welcome!

btw, "mil huit cent, quatre-vingt-quinze" is 1895, since we're speaking English here ...