Keenan family in Dundee (by way of Ireland)

[ariedl]

I have been researching my maternal grandfather's family (Nicoll) for a while, with a fair amount of success. When I finally turned to the maternal grandmother's family (Keenan), though, I hit a wall pretty quickly. An Irish wall, if you will.

I was able to pretty easily find records for my great-grandfather (Patrick Keenan), as well as some records for his father (Michael). But beyond that, I'm lost. The census records indicate that Michael (or Mick) was born in Ireland, with no county information. It's even unclear which exact year he was born, as the date doesn't match up across his records. It appears to be somewhere between 1840-1843. The first record I have of him in Scotland is his marriage record from 1866. The information for Michael's parents doesn't match in his marriage and death records, making it extremely difficult to know exactly for whom I should be looking.

I have searched many sites for records in both Scotland and Ireland, but can't find any results in which I feel confident. I'm hoping that someone will have a suggestion that might help me make some headway. I realize I've been spoiled by the quality of the Scottish records, and genealogy research on Irish ancestors is quite a bit more difficult.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Alec

[ev]

Hi Alec , and welcome to Rootschat 

Think this might be better on the Ireland General board as you should get more help with reference to Irish records.
You would think the marriage record would be more accurate than the death record for parent info. 
Can you give us Michael's parents names that you have ?

ev

[ev]

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTVZ-B9X

1881 230 Hilltown Dundee
Michael Keenan 38 police carter b. Ireland
Mary Keenan 42 b. Ireland
Mizria Smith(Keenan) 20 step daur. jute weaver b. Ireland
Betsy Keenan 14 jute spinner b. Dundee
Rose Ann Keenan 12 b. Dundee
Patrick Keenan 9 b. Dundee
Mary Ann Keenan 5 b. Dundee

Is that the family ?

ev

[ariedl]

Ev, thanks for moving this to the appropriate area. I wasn't sure where to post, as I knew I needed to look in Ireland, but thought I might find some leads in Scotland, such as Poor Relief Applications, etc. I'll take any leads I can find, though, and from any source!

Yes, that's the family I'm researching. Here's the information in Michael and Mary's marriage record:

1866 1st District of the Burgh of Dundee, in the County of Forfar
20th April 1866 St. Mary's Chapel, Maxwelltown, Dundee
Mick Keenan
Mason's Labourer
Age: 26

Parents:
John Keenan, Labourer
Betty Keenan, M.S. Rice

Mary Curran (widow of Patrick Smith)
millworker
Age: 27

Parents:
Patrick Curran, Labourer
Rose Curran, M.S. Finnan

And here's the information in Michael's death record:

1908, District of St. Andrew, in the Burgh of Dundee
Michael Keenan, Police Commissioner's Carter, widower of Mary Ann Curran
Date: 1908, November 21st
Age: 67 years

Parents:
Michael Keenan, Farm Labourer (deceased)
Elizabeth Keenan, M.S. McClinchy (deceased)

As you can see, Michael's father's name changes from John to Michael, and his mother's maiden name changes from Rice to McClinchy. The first census I can find for Michael in Scotland is 1871, and he and Mary are listed as being born in Ireland. I can find no record that either his or his wife's parents ever came to Scotland, nor, unfortunately, have I found any evidence of them in Ireland.

The only information my mother has on either the Keenans or Currans was anecdotal from her mother, who said that her family came from County Cork. Apparently my grandmother didn't see much of her family once she was an adult, so my mum had almost no knowledge of them. With absolutely no documentation, we have no way of knowing if they were in fact from Cork.

Please let me know if there's any other information I might have that could be of use, and thanks so much for any help!
Alec

[scotmum]

Welcome to rootschat  .

Gosh, think folks are struggling on this one as much as you are given the discrepancies in the parents names.

As said, marriage records are often more accurate as person giving details of parents is still alive, but, even marriage records can end up wrong if that person cannot read and has not realised a mistake has been made in the written version of the details they gave verbally. Or, person has given misleading info either because they a) don't know their parents names b) choose to.

Can I assume the marriage details posted above are from the Statutory Register rather than the Catholic Register? If yes, have you checked the Catholic Register entry too for any potential additional info that may have been captured? I've done a general index search on scotlandspeople and there would seem to be one, albeit possibly with slight differences in spelling (I used some * wildcards, but narrowed to the 2 St Mary's chapels in Dundee area and the year of marriage).

Also, have you checked witnesses on marriage and informant on deaths? If related, then finding the witness in the Census might help. Not often, but sometimes, a County in Ireland is captured in the census. Grasping at straws, yes, but can be worth checking.

As we are grasping at straws, and to prove that sometimes Counties of birth in Ireland are captured, I will throw a few more suggestions for you to check further. In 1861 Census for Dundee there is a Patrick Smith lodging with a Kelly family. His birth county is noted as Cavan. Now whilst he may be a different Patrick from the one Mary was married to, interestingly, there is another lodger in the same house. I am working from transcripts, so haven't seen original, but she is an Ann Currants, birth County Sligo. I wonder if original says Currants or Curran?  Your post above notes Mary had middle name Ann. All speculative thoughts, but at least some things to consider and check further. Going against it though, is Mary's 20 yr old daughter in the 1881 census. Considering her, there is interestingly a record for Portaferry, County Down, Ireland albeit 1871 (mistranscribed ?) for an Eliza Smith born to a Patrick Smith and Mary Ann Curran. Again, 1871 could be correctly transcribed and it just  be a totally different couple with same names. And indeed I've found more births beyond 1866, so this seems another non runner.

Picking up on the Finnan surname Mary gave for her mum at time of marriage, there were a number of Finnan's living in Dundee, so quite possible Mary, if the daughter of a Finnan female, knew some. Co-incidentally, David Guild Nicoll's wife Isabella's  sister-in-law had a sister married to a Finann.

scotmum

[ariedl]

Scotmum--
Thanks for the suggestions! I have to admit that even though I've been using the ScotlandsPeople site for years, I never even noticed the separate section for the Catholic Register records. Now that I have, unfortunately, the only record I could find for any of the Keenans is the marriage record for Michael and Mary Curran, and the information (other than an alternate spelling of Curren) is the same as that found in the Statutory record, though much more legible.

I looked for all of the people listed as witnesses on either Michael or Patrick's wedding records, and I think I have tracked down some of them. The witnesses at Michael and Mary's wedding were:
 - Henry Drury
 - Bridget McDonald
 - Archibald McDonald

I found a record on ancestry.co.uk for a Henry Drury who died in Dundee in 1871, and is listed as being born in Ireland around 1821, and marrying on 25 Dec 1856 in Knockbride, Cavan, Ireland. Might be the same person, might not. I'll have to do some more digging to find out.

I was able to find a Bridget McDonald in the 1861 census living in Dundee, but born about 1811 in County Clair, Ireland. Interestingly, there was also a Bridget McDonald living with a Quannan family in Dundee, and that family had a son named Michael. Unfortunately, nothing else matches up with what I know of Michael Keenan; the ages are off by about a decade, the mother's name is completely different, etc. This seemed very promising initially, but I think it may just have been a coincidence.

Archibald McDonald was the Roman Catholic priest who performed the wedding.

These were the witnesses for Patrick and Martha's wedding:
 - Helen Lindley
 - John Macintosh

I found a Helen Lindley in the 1891 census, living in Dundee. She and Martha Hutchison were about the same age, and based on their occupations, they may have worked together.

There were numerous John Macintoshes in Dundee in the 1891 and 1901 censuses, and I haven't been able to narrow down which one was most likely the witness.

Obviously, the links to Ireland in both of the witnesses at Michael and Mary's wedding are very promising, but now I have to figure out how to take advantage of the information. I'll post here if I find anything useful.

Thanks again--
Alec

[jcksnj930]

Hello Ariedl
Just thought I would let you know that my sister is researching the Keenan's on her husbands side
and thinks it might be linked to your search.
Mabel Keenan married Alexander in 1931 Dundee
Mabel was born in 1912 Dundee
her parents were as follows.....
Patrick Keenan & Martha Hutchison married 1894.
would be interested to know if this ties up with your family???
jcksnj930

[ariedl]

That's definitely the same family. I can remember my mother mentioning "Aunt Mabel" many times! I would be very interested in comparing notes with your sister. Feel free to send me a private message if you'd like to take the conversation out of this thread.

Thanks for posting!

Hello Ariedl
Just thought I would let you know that my sister is researching the Keenan's on her husbands side
and thinks it might be linked to your search.
Mabel Keenan married Alexander in 1931 Dundee
Mabel was born in 1912 Dundee
her parents were as follows.....
Patrick Keenan & Martha Hutchison married 1894.
would be interested to know if this ties up with your family???
jcksnj930

[scotmum]

jcksnj930, in case your sister hasn't come across it, the Dundee Courier of June 14th 1940 has a picture of Alexander Brankin, Sergeant in the Gordon Highlanders and former postmen, saying his wife Mabel had received notification he was missing. A few days later, the paper reports he was a POW. In 1947, Alexander was fined £1 when his dog was found guilty of biting a Motor Cyclist.