Help with finding Sarah McDermott's maiden name

[murney]

I agree with Aghadowey, women were still having children up to the age of 50 - I have seen a span of 20 - 24 years between first and last child born.  I would be 100% sure that the marriage you found is your James and Sarah.  I can have a look at the Dungannon records for baptisms for this couple if you like.

The baptismal record for Sarah is very hard to read - the names of the children on that particular page are cut off on the microfilm but I could see 'rah' and presumed that it was Sarah - this was confirmed when I found her burial and death record.

There is a death for an Edward McDermott, Kilkeel district, 1877, aged 61 on the civil death register on Ancestry.com which ties in with the burial record for Elizabeth that I found in Kilbroney parish - not sure if there was a death for both Edward and Elizabeth in that year, or if this is a typo on their part or else the priest wrote Elizabeth down rather than Edward - will do a bit more research on that.

I also found these deaths in the civil death register :

Name: James M'Dermot
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1891
Death Age: 70
Registration district: Kilkeel
Death Country: Ireland
Volume: 1
Page: 489

and

Name: James M'Dermott
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1802
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1883
Death Age: 81
Registration district: Kilkeel
Death Country: Ireland
Volume: 1
Page: 503

Either of these could be your James.  Might be worth getting the certs.

Kind regards

Deirdre

[TheresaM]

Hi Deirdre & Aghadowey,

What martyrs our female ancestors were! We would never dream of having a child at the age of 45 - 50!! 
Deirdre,  it would be great if you could look up the baptisms for any more children... thank you.
(The marriage of James & Sarah's gave very little detail... just the witness' and the denomination - RC. No priest or father's names!!)

Just wondering if the death records you found for Sarah & Rose Anne give details like the name of the parents?
The 2nd James could well be my ancestor !
Thank you again for all your help,
Theresa

[murney]

Hi Theresa

I will have a look for you next week when I go to the National Library in Dublin.

As regards the death information on Sarah and Rose Anne that I posted, that was taken from the civil death register (as are the 2 James McDermotts I also gave you) - you would have to order the certs to find out more information (I gave you the link on how to order them in a previous posting).  Irish death certs only give the name of the deceased, age, gender, marital status, where they died, what of, informant at death (usually a parent when a child is deceased).  Getting the cert should give you either James or Sarah as informant and it will also tell you where they lived at the time of death.  Of course, you already have that from Sarah's burial record (Parks).   I gave you all the information that was written on her burial record.

It was only after civil registration began in Ireland (1845 for Protestant marriages only) and 1864 for births, marriages and deaths for all religions that you would get the father's name on the marriage cert.  Any Catholic marriage records I have seen in the early to mid 1800s did not give parents' names - some priests did give names of parents but that was usually in the 1860s onwards and was quite rare.  Most priests also did not write their name against a particular record - some did, but it was usually just an initial.

I would agree with you that the 2nd death record is most likely your James but do not totally dismiss the first one if the 2nd one turns out not to be your James.  It is possible that the informant at death did not know the exact age of the deceased and just guessed, especially if the person was elderly.  James could have looked younger than he was.

If you have time on your trip to Ireland, I would recommend that you visit Rostrevor - it is really a lovely area, on the shores of Carlingford Lough with the Mourne Mountains behind it and the Cooley Mountains in front of it.  I believe there is a lay person who looks after the records so it might be worth your while contacting her to see if you can make an appointment to view them - you can access them from the microfilm in PRONI but only up to 1880 and you might find more burial records for this family after 1880 in the originals.

The contact details for the parish are :

Kilbroney Parish
44 Church Street
Rostrevor
Co Down BT34 3BB
Office: 00 44 28 41739495
kilbroneyparish[at]hotmail.co.uk
If you phone them once you are in Northern Ireland, just dial 417 39495

Deirdre

[TheresaM]

Hi Deirdre,
We will be staying in Rostrevor for the 5 days we're in County Down!
Will certainly contact the  Catholic Parish there. Will also order the death certificates for Rose anne, Sarah & James X2  then. A bit difficult to order on line ( Australia)
I have been searching for places in Kilbroney where James might have worked as Shovel Finisher / Spade Maker. I found a Spade Manufacturer in Newry. I wonder if this would have been too far to   travel?
Thanks again for the offer to look up McDermott births in Dungannon.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Theresa
   

[murney]

Hi Theresa

I hope you enjoy Rostrevor - it is a very pretty place. 

I am not sure about James travelling to Newry every day, especially on foot - it is about a 10 mile journey if not more.  I would have thought that they would live in Newry if he worked there.  There was a mill in Forestbrook which is very close Newtown (if not part of it) and was owned by the Carvill family of Newry who also manufactured shovels and it is possible that he worked there.  I will have another look for that mill / factory and send you the details.  He could also have been working for himself and using a blacksmith's smithy to make or repair shovels.  Rostrevor was and still is a small village where they would not have been any major industry - you would have had to go to Newry for that.

With regard to ordering the death certs - if you are in Dublin during your stay, I would highly recommend that you take an hour out and visit the Research Facility’s Reading Room of the GRO in Dublin.  Here is the link :  http://www.groireland.ie/research.htm  You will get your 'certs' more or less immediately.  You need the Name, Year (quarter if necessary), District (Kilkeel), Volume and Page numbers (which are supplied on the posting I sent you).  What you will get is a photocopy of the actual registration entry and is much cheaper than ordering a cert (about 4 euro).  All the information will be exactly the same as on the cert.   The staff are very helpful.

I have found what I believe are 2 sisters of Mary Jane who married in Rostrevor in 1865 and 1877.  I will post all that I found on them later today.

Regards

Deirdre

[murney]

Hi Theresa

I believe I have found 2 sisters for Mary Jane McDermott King from a combination of the websites AncestryIreland, Emerald Ancestors and Family Search.

Margaret McDermott (father James) married Patrick Galbraith (father Robert) in Rostrevor on 8 Sep 1865.  Going by their sons’ occupations, it is possible that Patrick was a tinsmith.  They had 12 children :

1.  Robert, b 26 Jun 1866 in Co Down.  Robert was a labourer and he married Catherine Savage (father James) in Downpatrick on 4 Feb 1906.  They are living in Killough in 1911 (no children).

2.  James b. 22 Oct 1867 in Co Down (possibly Kilkeel – will check that).  James was a tinsmith and he married Margaret Savage (father James) on 12 Jan 1899 in Belfast.   Margaret and Catherine could be sisters but you would have to get the marriage certs to find that out. They were living in Belfast in 1901 but Downpatrick in 1911.  They had at least 3 children : James, Thomas and Robert.  There is a Mary Jane living with them in 1901 but she may not be James’ daughter.

3.  Thomas  b. 26 Apr 1869 in Co Down (possibly Kilkeel).  Thomas was a tinsmith and  he married Sarah Kemp on 1 Dec 1898 in Newtownards, Co Down.  They had 5 children : Maggie, Thomas, John, Patrick and Catherine.

4.  Margaret b. 29 Jul 1870 in Garvagh, Co. Londonderry. 

5.  Agnes, b. 03 Apr 1873 in Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland. 

6.  William b. 27 Apr 1875 in Co. Down.  William was a tinsmith and he married a Rose (don’t have their marriage).  They lived in West Belfast and had at least 12 children, 5 of whom were living in 1911 : Patrick, Agnes, William, Roseann, Mary Ellen.

7. Patrick b. 16 Feb 1877  in Armagh.  Patrick was a tinsmith and he was single up to 1911. He does not appear to know where he was born as different places are given in the censes, but as this family travelled a lot and didn’t stay for very long in the one place, that is no surprise!

8.  Sarah b. 24 Jan 1879 in Co Down. 

9.  Joseph b. 27 Oct 1880 in Ballycastle, Co Antrim.

10. John b. 1882

11. Jane b. 1884.  Jane married Hugh O’Hanlon (tinsmith) in Downpatrick on 10 Oct 1904.  Does not appear to have had any children.

12. Francis b. 1886


Catherine McDermott (father James) married Charles McKay (father Edward) in Rostrevor on 7 Jul 1877.  I believe Charles was a sailor according to this website where the person appears to have seen the birth cert http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fremac/ireland/pafg190.htm  If you click on the Notes beside Edward John’s birth you will see that her mother Sarah McDermott registered the birth.

Catherine and Charles McKay had at least 3 children (born in Newtown, Rostrevor) : James b. 5 May 1878 and Edward John b. 4 Nov 1879 and Sarah Jane b. 1892.  I cannot find this family anywhere in the 1901 or 1911 census.

Regards

Deirdre

[murney]

With regard to William Galbraith, (son of Margaret McDermott Galbraith), he married Rose Boyd in Belfast on 16 Dec 1894.

Joseph Galbraith (b. 1880) states that he is married in 1911 (he is living in Downpatrick) with 2 children but I cannot find the marriage nor his children.  Cannot find him in 1901 either.

[aghadowey]

Joseph Galbraith (b. 1880) states that he is married in 1911 (he is living in Downpatrick) with 2 children but I cannot find the marriage nor his children.  Cannot find him in 1901 either.

Joseph is listed twice in 1911 census- here-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Downpatrick/Mary_Street/237442
and also in brother's household but crossed out on form-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Downpatrick/John_Street/237364

Is this not Joseph in 1901 in mother Margaret's household? also a Hugh not mentioned on your list-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Downpatrick_Urban/The_Gullion/1228356

[TheresaM]

Many thanks Deirdre,
I can't believe how much information you have collected on the McDermotts in such a short space of time! Have you had any respite at all?

The number of siblings for Mary Jane's is growing! Fancy finding Catherine's marriage to Charles McKay, complete with notes confirming Sarah as her mother.    
 
I did know of Margaret's marriage to Patrick Galbraith....only because Mary Jane McDermott was one of the witnesses.I thought perhaps they were cousins!
Through the week Rosemary Joan sent me details of Margaret's birth in Newry 1848. Ellen Morrison was given as the mother and Ellen Cambell as a witness. Rosemary thought that perhaps the priest had made a mistake & had skipped a line!. The other wittness was Patrick McDermott.!
 
It's amazing that you have found all the children (& some grandchildren) .... especially the one born in Scotland! If only Mary Jane's wasn't so elusive!
She would not have been in either of the census, as she & Charles sailed for Australia on the Flying Cloud in 1870 - the year of their marriage.
My grandfather Patrick was born in 1873 & the birth certificate gave Mary Jane's age as 26 & her place of birth as Rostrevor . Charles was the informant.

Deirdre, I do appreciate all your help,
Theresa.