BURNS Family (Irish) John & Mary: England ~1856-1864 -> Brooklyn New York

[stellamaire]

Here’s another one of those common name brick walls.  Here’s what I know:
My gg-gp were born Ireland, John ~1830, Mary ~1834.  Don’t know if they married in Ireland or England.  They lived in England ~1856-1864 where their 4 sons were born, James, John, Thomas, Michael.  In June 1864, Mary and the 4 boys  are on the “Robert L. Lane” from Liverpool to New York.  I checked the complete manifest and did not find father John listed.
Father John was already in New York, or he joined his family soon after, because John & Mary have a daughter Mary born in New York in 1865. 
Also father John had a brother Michael who arrived New York with him or around the same time.
I have a lot of info about the Burns family New York (Brooklyn). But don’t have details for their life in Ireland and England.
Does any of this ring a bell ?  If anyone can find this family on the 1861 England census,  or passesger list(s) for John and his brother Michael  to New York; that would knock down a big brick wall for me.  Thank you.
    John J. Burns, b.Ireland 1824-30, d. 1906
     brother Michael Burns, b.Ireland 1835, d. ~1905
     wife Mary Burns, b.Ireland 1834-40, d. after 1905
     son James Burns, b.England ~1857, d.  after 1875
     son John F. Burns, b.England ~1858, d. after 1884
     son Thomas C. Burns, b.England ~1860, occupation cigarmaker, married Kate Reynolds ~1882,
              d. 1901.  children: Harold, Margaret, Thomas, Elizabeth
     son Michael Burns, b.England ~1862, d. 1926
     daughter Mary E. Burns, b.New York ~1865, married John C. McNulty ~1890, d. 1937. 
             children: John (Father Casimir CP), Joseph, Francis, Mary (Sister Gabriella RSM), Harold

[AMBLY]

Hi stellamaire
   
It was extremely common for the father (sometimes with an older son or sons) to travel ahead of his wife and young children; he would secure a job and a place to live for their later arrival.  You're fortunate that Mary travelling with her children, is identifiable.  However, John is going to be difficult  - there wasn't much info on the manifests then, and he's just one John Burns of many,   travelling  between 1862-ish to Jun 1864.

1880 Census in Brooklyn (10th June)
John - 50 (b abt 1830)
Mary - 45, b abt 1835)
Thomas C  21 (b abt 1859)
Michael 17 - (b abt 1863)
Mary E 15 - (b abt 1865)

You mentioned above, that Mary Snr died after 1905. Yet it looks to me  like John BURNS (age a bit out) is in the McNULTY household in 1900 Brooklyn, listed as a widower. His daughter  Mary E (McNULTY) appears to be taking license with her age as 30, b Mar 1870 NY,(have you details of this 1900 census?). On this Census, this John BURNS says he came to the US in 1864 and is naturalised.

My suspicion - could be be totally wrong though -  is that they possibly originated in England from the Liverpool area, and may have come to be there due to the Irish Potato Famine - the smallest unique details are going to identify yours from the rest, especially in that case - as you say, a common name, common forenames too .

Are you able to provide details of any of the following which might help with finding them in England
1) For those that have middle initials  - what are the full middle names?
2) For those of the family who lived long enough to appear on the 1900 US Census,(particularly at this stage, the English born children) -  what is the month and year of birth they returned on that Census?
3) Mary Snr's maiden name - are there any documents where is should be recorded in the US - on the birth of daughter Mary E, on the marriages of any of the children, death records?

Cheers
AMBLY

[aghadowey]

Birth certificate for children born in England will list mother's maiden name. You can also search for marriage index details on www.freebmd.org.uk to see if it took place in England. If they married in Ireland unfortunately it would be before the start of marriage registration.

1880 census- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MZ8V-BPH

Too many possibilities in 1861 census (www.familysearch.org) and surname could be Burns, Byrnes, etc.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

[stellamaire]

Thank you Ambly & Aghadowey for your advice. 
I am going back to NY records, ordering death certs for John Snr & son Michael and Burns/McNulty marriage cert.
Hopefully will find some middle names and Mary Snr’s maiden name and then try again with English records.
I noticed that about Mary E’s age…funny how she became younger just around the time of she marries John McNulty who is 5 years younger than her.
As for John J. being a widow in 1900… Mary Burns is on the 1905 census with her DIL Catherine Burns (widow of Thomas) and grandchildren. 
She is incorretly listed as “mother” instead of MIL, but Catherine’s mother’s name was Margaret Reynolds.
Meanwhile John J. is still living with his daughter's family in 1905, and his brother Michael has joined them. 
I don’t know where Mary Snr was in 1900, but she wasn’t dead !