Author Topic: Calvary Cemetery Lookup  (Read 6654 times)

Offline Michael ONeil

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 08 May 13 13:07 BST (UK) »
Hi Barb (hope you don't mind?),

James was born 1846 in Ireland. I do know he was dead by February 1907 for certain because his son's wedding certificate in Liverpool UK says he was deceased. The 1905 date for his death comes from his sister's 1916 probate in NYC. It's a typed up document but the year has been handwritten in pencil as if they weren't sure. The executor was a brother and the 1906 date comes from the brother's son when writing to my aunt in the late 1950s. So I've had a 2 year period to check - in 1905 he'd have been 59 and in 1906 he'd have been 60. Obviously I've given myself more years than this as leeway. As far as the records at the NYC death index I've already had the 2074 record checked out. I need to check my files about 30424 (rings a bell) - the rest seemed unlikely?

The findagrave link to Angela (Ames) O'Neill is:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSmid=47373985&GRid=105930938&
The photographer's reply was "There was no headstone,the Flag represents the plot location." As I said I was hoping there would be a headstone because I didn't want to pay $180.00 for the interment list which I anticipate would contain the names Goode, Beechinor, Carroll, Ames and Dickers and hopefully James O'Neil.

Thanks again - Michael.

I also manage the rest of James' family (siblings and parents) at a different location in Calvary.
Surnames: O'Neil, Beechinor, Ames, Dickers
Locations: Clonakilty, Cashilisky, Fourcuil, Ringroe, Knuckskagh, New York City, Ohio, Canada, Liverpool.

Offline Michael ONeil

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 08 May 13 13:10 BST (UK) »
Sorry meant to say $18.00 was what I first thought Calvary's price was for the interment list but I'd misread this - it was $180.00. The $10.00 was what I thought I could get away with 'donating' for them just to check if James O'Neil is on that list.
Surnames: O'Neil, Beechinor, Ames, Dickers
Locations: Clonakilty, Cashilisky, Fourcuil, Ringroe, Knuckskagh, New York City, Ohio, Canada, Liverpool.

Offline carpenter49

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 14 May 13 21:42 BST (UK) »
This looks likely. 

O'Neill  James  59 y  Apr  21  1905  7829  Kings  O540 

Accuracy was not much of a concern, more or less, it did not seem to matter to get an accurate date of birth to calculate age at death.

It's possible no stone exists.  This is the oldest of the Calvaries and, though full, it is not.  Which means people did not put up a stone or the stone is long gone, especially if not made of granite but sandstone.  When I get there I can see what it is at the site.

It is what it is.

Offline Michael ONeil

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 15 May 13 08:32 BST (UK) »
Hi Barb,

Cheers for that. I did check that one out back in 2009 as well as the following (first two were long shots in case the 3 had been mistaken for 5 in their ages):

O'Neil    James    37 y    May    1    1905    15129    Manhattan    O540
O'Neil    James    37 y    Aug    16    1905    15920    Kings    O540
O'Neill    James    59 y    Apr    21    1905    7829    Kings    O540
O'Neill    James    51 y    May    8    1905    2074    Bronx    O540
O'Neil    James    61 y    Dec    25    1907    25764    Kings    O540

James O'Neil, Kings, April 21, 1905, Age 59, Cert No. 7829.  Death certificate details read:
Certificate stamped Department of Health, Borough of Brooklyn, April 23 1905
James O'Neill.   MD attended the deceased from February 23 1905 to April 20 1905 and deceased died on 21 April 1905 about 11 pm from "nephritis and aortic valve disease"
Residence: 211 North 6 Street (or North E Street)
MD lived at 192 North 6 Street (or North E Street)
Father's name: unknown
Father's birthplace: Ireland
Mother's name: unknown
Mother's birthplace: Ireland
Married
Occupation: Engineer
Birthplace: Irelnd
How long in US: 40 years
Buried at Calvary Cemetery on 24 April 1905.
Undertaker: G G Montrose of 149 No 3 Street (or could be North 3 Street

Now it could be him. The age is right, the birth locations of parents are right, he did live in Brooklyn from 1871-75 so there is that connection. OK I can live without the lack of parents' names and the fact that he'd been in the USA for 53 years as opposed to the stated 40 - as you say it's best not to pin your hopes on absolute accuracy but and it's a big but - it's the occupation. He'd been a liquor/tea dealer on Chambers Street and Water Street (Brooklyn) and his son's wedding certificate in Liverpool says his father was a deceased salesman - seems a far cry from Engineer?

So with no more 'realistic' info to check I had nothing to go on until I found his wife's burial info. My inclination says that they were estranged but she kept the surname O'Neil and also her maiden name (Ames) with O'Neil - that's how it appears on the death certificate and obit. So I was hoping that maybe James was buried later with her. Someone said that as it's a family plot of three graves and 19 people buried there it seems unusual that there's no headstone but as you said it might never have existed or has long gone. Whilst my other family plot of 2 graves elsewhere in Calvary has a headstone it's quite simply marked 'O'Neil' so that wouldn't help people a lot if they were researching that family would it???

Anyhow cheers for that - just thought I'd let you know I reckon I've covered what I can already.

Michael.
Surnames: O'Neil, Beechinor, Ames, Dickers
Locations: Clonakilty, Cashilisky, Fourcuil, Ringroe, Knuckskagh, New York City, Ohio, Canada, Liverpool.


Offline carpenter49

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 16 May 13 21:20 BST (UK) »
O'Neil  James  59 y  Apr  21  1905  7829  Kings   

If you know he's in Calvary, call 718-786-8000 and give full name and date of death.  They will give you the location of the Section, Range, etc.  By Section you will know which of the 4 Calvaries that James O'Neill is buried in.

Many people woud come here and not be able to find the work that they did in the original country, so they worked at what they could.   If one thing did not work out, they became a carpenter or a saleman -- whatever gave them a paycheck.

If you cannot call, let me know.  You may find that he's buried in Calvary but in another grave since they were estranged.  She likely would not have changed her name, nor divorced.  Possible, but unlikely.   

At the time, Calvary was the Catholic Cemetery when St. Patrick's was already full and the NY law stated no cemeteries could be in Manhattan (New York county).  So, the Archdiocese bought the area of Calvary 1 and it quickly filled -- resulting in them buying and creating 3 more Calvaries a bit further east in Queens County.   I'd say it's still likely he's buried in Calvary 1, assuming that that James is your relative and he does seem the closestt.

Accuracy was not important.  If he had no relative contacts when he died, neighbors and friends might be asked for length of time in the U.S. -- and 40 years was a good guess when friends did not know exact year, so they "guessed" knowing it was a long time just not how long ago.  Engineer, he may have been one in Ireland or trained, but never could find enough work as an Engineer here. 

A liquor dealer could be a liquor salesman -- they might not want to have mentioned liquor (already becoming controversial here in the first decade of 1900) and felt that "salesman" covered his profession without divulging what he sold.

I have found that people were suspicious of government - our own and their home country.  I have one family where the father used 3 different years of birth to cover up 2 previous marriages -- and then a new first name for his third (but not final marriage) -- to cover up that the first two marriages were not marriages at all or without benefit of divorce.  But it was him.  And in early 1900s, this was easy to do because the enumerator or doctor did not bother to check things like exact time in country or did he spell his name O'Neil or Neil when he signed up for work or moved to a new lodging house?   And there were no social security numbers.   You'd be surprised at the inaccuracies that were intentional so the government could not really keep track and how easy it was.

Also, your relative may have entered through Canada, spent some time there, and then left for the U.S.

Unfortunately, you are dealing with a common name.  I found no marriage between James O'Neil and either Angela or Hannah Ames in NYC.
It is what it is.

Offline Michael ONeil

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #14 on: Friday 17 May 13 13:17 BST (UK) »
Hi Barb,

Thanks for the reply.

Quite simply I don't know for sure he's in Calvary - in fact I don't know where he's buried - that's been one of my mysteries. His parents and 6 siblings are buried in the O'Neil plot in Calvary I mentioned earlier (see link) and another 2 siblings are buried in Akron, Ohio. I've got the death certificates for all bar Mary A. O'Neil who despite me having the obit, burial details and complete probate package (running to nearly a 100 pages) - there's no death certificate for her at NYCMA. Tried everything I can to find out what happened there but no joy. Anyhow as I don't know for certain I couldn't see any point about calling Calvary about James given that I don't have much to go on other than the plot and graves info for Angela. Anyhow James (my direct ancestor) has gone annoyingly AWOL and I've been researching this for nearly 20 years. Discovering his wife's (estranged or not) burial details was quite simply a lead I had to check - was he buried with her?

I agree with your point about accuracy by the way - some of the death certificates I have are way out as far as time in USA, some are years out as far as age and you'd think that the 3 sisters never aged between 1900 and 1910 on the censuses. It seems it was the women who lied more about their age (hmmm?).

Anyhow James married Hannah Angela Ames 30 April 1873 at St Teresa's on Henry Street and their son (also James who married in Liverpool) was born 21 Feb 1874 at 97 Bergen Street Brooklyn. The marriage details state Liquor Dealer whereas the birth certificate states Clerk for James. The second part of his naturalisation process 9 Oct 1876 states Tea Dealer. I suppose he could have re-trained as an engineer but I just can't see it myself. Plus why would his son put Salesman down on his wedding certificate in Liverpool - to me Engineer sounds far grander.

It is interesting that you mention Canada. I have correspondence between a nephew and one of my aunts from the late 1950s. He says that he'd talked to his mother (married to one of the brothers in Akron and in her early 90s) and she said that James' son had part of his schooling in Canada but offers no explanation for this and stayed at their home between 1890-1892. He would have been 16 in 1890 so the schooling must have been before then - why Canada I've no idea but I have thought that either his mother Angela or father James had moved there but can't make any headway on that.

Sorry for the convoluted reply - I have cut it short but I wanted to answer some of your points.

Michael.

PS on a side note and as a really big favour. If you were to call Calvary do you think they might have a death certificate number or place of issue attached to the burial info for the Mary I mentioned at the start?

Mary Ann O'Neil
Age 81
Buried 16 June 1916
Section 4, Range 15, Plot D, Grave 2.

She died 13 June 1916 and her obit said at her late residence (106 E12th Street), funeral at 9.30 AM. Calvary did supply me with the O'Neil interment list back in 2002 and I knew for certain that some of the ages were wrong because I have the baptismal records. However when I started getting the death certificates the information on them matched the info that Calvary had supplied - ergo Calvary's information must have come from the certificates in the first place - so where did they get the information regarding Mary?
Surnames: O'Neil, Beechinor, Ames, Dickers
Locations: Clonakilty, Cashilisky, Fourcuil, Ringroe, Knuckskagh, New York City, Ohio, Canada, Liverpool.

Offline carpenter49

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 19 May 13 18:21 BST (UK) »
Hard to imagine 19 people buried in an unmarked grave, unless it was sandstone and eroded away.  At some point, I would imagine a headstone would have been put up.  I was going to check today -- I have about 8 people to search for graves but it's raining today.  I know this cemetery and nothing is numbered correctly or makes any sense.  It sometimes takes me more than one attempt.  I have even had to call the office to send a groundsman out to where I am when I am in a section and cannot find not one grave on my list. 

Can you get a copy of the death certificate for the James who was 59?  #7829.  Is he a possibility as Hannah's estranged husband and father of James born in Brooklyn?  The death certificate should show where burial was to take place.  Let me know if you have it; I may be able to get 7829 pulled.

As for Mary Ann -- she could be listed as Maryann, or any number of spellings such as Maryanne -- Mary Anne, etc. in the NYC death index.  Even Margaret would not surprise me.  People changed first names as easy as they changed the spellings of last names.   Many if not most were suspicious of records and government.  Move to another state, abandon your wife and child, change your name a bit and change your year of birth and marry again -- no problem. 

As for Mary Ann's death, if the county coroner (at the time) or medical examiner now, had no record to go on he would have had to rely on what he was told by relatives as to age and date of birth.  If she had no living contacts, they would do their best to approximate, but when born in another country they could only do their best guess based on what they were told by neighbors or what they found to be the date and place of birth based on any papers found at the place of death.  The coroner would then draw up a death certificate that would go to the funeral home and then to the cemetery and that would become the official record.  Not all cemeteries keep or have the death certificate, but they should.

I know one recent death -- the family did not care for the husband so they buried her under her maiden name but they could not keep the husband's last name off of the death certicate, the funeral home records, the coroner's records and the cemetery's records.  The family just would not put his name on the headstone -- and this was 1990.  Anyone looking for this woman would not know how to find her unless one knew that her real records contained her married name but she was not buried under that name.   A headstone can say anything, but the coroner's or medical examiner's death certificate should be accurate -- or as accurate as possible.
It is what it is.

Offline carpenter49

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 19 May 13 18:31 BST (UK) »
Wanted to pick up some of your other points.  I have found that occupations almost never match.  My grandfather came over here and said he was a locksmith on his papers.  My aunt was surprised -- he never was a locksmith. 

I index those ship's records and they are really inaccurate, both as to who took the information and the index instructions themselves.    I've checked families and people have one profession and in the next census they have another and so on, so I don't usually count on their accuracy.  But, for whatever reason, he might have felt he had a better chance of getting in or maybe he was a locksmith for some moment in time in Europe -- and we never heard a word about it.   Further, of all my grandfather's professions, he worked for a time on a bridge -- and he was not an Engineer either.   

I mentioned Canada because in looking up the James O'Neil's I found many, if not most, emigrated through Canada.  So, if James was born here, went back and returned, he might have come back in through Canada -- having U.S. citizenship that would have been no problem, if I remember correctly.  He would be going from England to a dominion of England and then to his place of birth.

I will call Calvary about Mary Ann.  Probably Tuesday.    By the way, do your other records indicate that Mary Ann was NOT 81 years old or some other contradictory information?  Might be a clue why her death certificate cannot be located.
It is what it is.

Offline Michael ONeil

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Re: Calvary Cemetery Lookup
« Reply #17 on: Monday 20 May 13 09:32 BST (UK) »
I have the certificate 7289. James O'Neil was buried at Calvary Cemetery on 24 April 1905. Undertaker: G G Montrose of 149 No 3 Street (or could be North 3 Street).

As far as immigration, occupations and censuses, etc my James was only 6 when he arrived so no occupation there but my family as a whole seem to have been pretty consistent. I've only had 3 addresses in NYC to worry about and they appear in the censuses and on nearly all the city directories - boarding house keepers for the females and liquor/tea dealers for the males. James arrived directly from Cork to NYC with no Canada connection apart from his son's later reported schooling there (sometime before 1890).

Believe me I've tried EVERYTHING regarding Mary Ann's certificate. Have checked all possibilities from 1916 and a few years either side - all dates (including a Jan 16 thinking it was mis-transcribed), variants of names (first and last), no name only date, etc. Steve Morse's system allows you to search day by day and no luck. Have tried all 5 boroughs, NY State, NJ State (thinking she might have been out of the city even though I doubt that completely). Plus she died 13 June and was buried 16 June (9.30AM) so exactly how far away could this have been to allow for transportation and arrangements to take place in 2 days??? Oddly enough, given that I don't have her death certificate the age that Calvary gave as 81 was her correct age - she was baptised 22 May 1835 so no information indicating she was NOT 81. I have tried Calvary in the past to see if they hold copies (which they should), transport of cadavers, etc - they sent me back to NYMCA - bless them. As if I hadn't already been there!!!

Anyhow her 2 sisters' death certificates are both complete as far as parents, names, etc but the ages don't match the baptismal details - Catherine's age was given as 72 in 1917 when she was 76 and Annie (Honora)'s was give as 83 when she should have been 74. Both have the same undertaker - William J. Reilly of 104 E12th Street. Could Mary Ann have had the same undertaker which would be extremely convenient given that their address was 106 E12th Street - right next door!!!

PS as regards the plot with 19 people. The plot was purchased by Joanna Goode April 7 1869 for her husband George Goode who died in the January of 1869. Joanna was a Beechinor by birth and the Beechinors were a large family who appear to be a connecting family in my research. Hannah's father Norman Ames had married Mary Beechinor making him a brother-in-law to George Goode and another daughter Catherine, married a William Dickers and after his death a Patrick Carroll and it was at Catherine (Carroll's) house that Angela died in 1902. So I'm reasonably confident that these names would feature in an interment list or headstone(s). Goode, Beechinor, O'Neil and Carroll. Doubt William Dickers would feature as he was buried 29 Oct 1865 before the plot was purchased.

Hopefully I've covered most of your points.

Thanks - Michael.
Surnames: O'Neil, Beechinor, Ames, Dickers
Locations: Clonakilty, Cashilisky, Fourcuil, Ringroe, Knuckskagh, New York City, Ohio, Canada, Liverpool.