Aughton Marriage

[neilbar]

Hello Jill,

I'm new to RootsChat.com just this evening, so apologies if I don't get things quite right when posting.

I randomly came across this post and wondered if you had managed to find what you were looking for about Ambrose Barnett.

Not sure whether I can help further, but Ambrose was my GGG Grandfather.

I've never managed to trace my Barnett family history beyond Ambrose because his marriage certificate to Mary Walks does not have his father's name recorded.  I've always assumed that this indicated he was illegitimate or orphaned.  I actually visited Aughton Parish Church a few years ago where the marriage took place and travelled the same route that they probably took from Spaldington where they both lived.

Hope to hear from you.

Neil

[jillruss]

Hi Neil,

Its very nice to hear from you. I'd forgotten all about this thread but funnily enough have just been ploughing through the East Yorkshire parish records on Find My Past, with Barnard/Barnett being one of my main names.

It was because Ambrose was a forename which featured in the Barnett branch of my family history that I latched on to this Ambrose born 1816 in Roos, especially as I'm pretty sure his family moved to that area after the early death of Thomas Barnard/Barnett in Little Weighton in 1797 at the age of only 25. Thomas was my 4xgreat grandfather and may have been the grandfather of Ambrose from Roos, but I don't think I've tied it all together yet with any great certainty!!

Let me try to get my head around it all again and get back to you to compare notes. Are you from that Aughton/Bubwith area or from the Roos area - or much further afield?

I'll get back to you.

Jill

[neilbar]

Hello Jill,

Just read your message after a full day in the garden.

I wasn't sure how easy it would be for you to pick up on an old thread, so it was a pleasant surprise that you responded so quickly.

I haven't got much time to go into detail this evening - Eurovision beckons! - but my branch of the Barnett family did end up further afield.  My G Grandfather, George Henry Barnett, was the Grandson of Ambrose and the son of Robert Ogram.  George left the East Yorkshire area when he was 12 and made his own way to Milford Haven, worked in the fishing industry and lived there until his death.  His son (and my Grandfather), Thomas Robert Cyril, moved from Milford to Fleetwood on the Fylde Coast of Lancashire in his early 20s and that's where our branch of the family has remained ever since.

Are you 100% certain that our Ambrose is the one who was born in Roos?  I'll need to check, but I'm thinking that a birth place of Seaton Ross was listed on one document, which would make sense geographically.

I'll get back to you when I've dug out the paperwork.

Bye for now.

Neil

[jillruss]

Hi Neil,

I can empathise with the gardening (just been out tidying up and dead heading) but I'll leave Eurovision to you!

I've had another look at the Ambrose Barnard (I'll stick to 'Barnard') question but I think I'm still going around in ever decreasing circles trying to get to the bottom of it.

I have no definite proof that the Roos born Ambrose is 'mine' - its all circumstantial and probably wouldn't stand up in a court of law, but - what the hell - here's my theory:

My line goes back through Thomas Barnard, baptised 1772 in Walkington, East Yorks, son of Ambrose & Ann (nee Marshall). In 1791, Thomas married Ann Tindal (again: Tindale, Tindill etc) in the parish of Rowley, EYks. The Rowley parish included a village called Little Weighton (or Weeton) which is where my earlier Barnards lived for a few generations at least. It is also just up the road from Walkington.

Thomas & Ann had 2 daughters baptised in Rowley and then a son Ambrose baptised in nearby Skidby in 1794 but died 1795. They then had another Ambrose baptised in Skidby in 1797. Incidentally, this Ambrose married Jane Ganton in Roos in 1828 and emigrated to Ontario, Canada, to be followed out there by a few of the sons of his sister Jane who is my 3xgreat grandmother.

Thomas Barnard was buried in Little Weighton in 1797. He was only 25 years old. The burial entry in the parish register doesn't give the cause of death and I haven't been able to find local newspapers that go that far back that might have reported an accident of some kind.

His widow Ann remarried to a Thomas Clark in 1798 in Skidby and they had a daughter Betty baptised and buried there in 1797. After that it becomes a bit murky! 2 more children followed, baptised in Skidby, but the baptism entries in the PRs describe both as 'Charity, daughter of Ann Clark' in 1801 and 'William, son of Ann Clark' in 1805. Yet, when young William is buried in 1810 he becomes 'the son of Thomas & Ann Clark'. After that, I lose track of Thomas & Ann Clark but their only surviving child together - Charity - pops up marrying in Holmpton in 1821 (when one of the witnesses was an Ambrose Barnett!)and again in Swine - both places more in the Roos area of EYks. This is what leads me to believe that Ann Barnard Clark - with or without her second husband - moved to this area with her surviving children (Ambrose marries in Roos and my Jane marries in Keyingham - all east of Hull).

This is where I point out that the 'other' daughter of Thomas & Ann Barnard baptised 1792 in Rowley was Mary - and I'm pretty sure that it is this Mary who has a 'natural' son baptised in Skidby in 1811. Wouldn't it make sense that she would go on to have another - Ambrose - in Roos in 1816?

Also, I've looked at the marriage entry in 1839 in Aughton for Ambrose Barnard & Mary Walks and one of the witnesses is John Thruston Tindal who was baptised in Roos in 1807 and is the son of my Jane's and your Mary's uncle Richard Tindal - so is her cousin . What relation would that have made him to the 1816 Ambrose? Second cousin? 

Sorry - I've gone on a bit! Its very hard to unravel it all without explanations.

I've tried to find Ambrose's mother Mary on the early censuses but failed dismally. Neither could I find any sign on them of his grandmother Ann Clark. And I haven't found the significance of Ogram either! I did wonder if it could have been the name of Ambrose's father.

Actually, typing all that out has served to chrystalise it more in my mind and I think its a good case! What do you think? I'll be interested to hear what you make of it.

best wishes,
Jill

[neilbar]

Hello Jill,

Sorry for the delay, but this is first chance I've had in the past couple of weeks to sit down and spend some time digesting all of the detailed information you sent.

It's a few years since I did any lengthy research on the family tree, so to find that you had uncovered a possible lead to Ambrose's ancestry was amazing.

As well as Roos, I'd scribbled down his possible birthplace as Seaton Ross and there was also a suggestion from another source that it could have been Burton Pidsea, but you've more than convinced me that Roos is the most likely.  The Barnett (Barnard) family must all have had the same knack for quoting different birthplaces during their lifetimes: my G Grandfather, George Henry, had 2 or 3 different East Yorkshire villages listed over the years...plus he always seemed uncertain about his actual age from the various birth dates recorded!

With all of the evidence you've uncovered then I would certainly back up your very convincing theory that Ambrose is our man.  Your John Thruston Tindal being a witness at the wedding is the one that sealed it for me. Is he the John Tindall living close by to Ambrose on the 1841 census with wife Mary and children Mary & Sarah?

The reasoning behind the frequent use of the middle name Ogram in the Barnett family line has always baffled me. Your theory that it could have been the name of Ambrose’s father sounds to be very plausible.  I had a quick search for the Ogram surname in the Roos/Patrington area and it was certainly around at the time; in fact I found someone who appeared to be the perfect ‘candidate’ on my first search, but I suspect that even Inspector Morse would have difficulty in finding this ‘needle in the haystack’.

Do you have the name of the ‘natural’ son of Mary (Ambrose’s mother) who was baptised in Skidby in 1811?

Looking again through the 1841 census entry where the surname had changed from Barnett (on the marriage certificate) back to Barnard, I’m intrigued by the appearance of the 12-year-old Ann Barnard.  I’d always believed that Robert Ogram was Ambrose’s only child, and Ann was ‘in theory’ too old to be the daughter of Ambrose and Mary.  Could she have been the niece or cousin of Ambrose and was just visiting the house at the time of the census?  I notice that there was a Robinson Barnard (aged 35-39) who was living nearby with wife Ann and children, Hannah, Elizabeth and William - Ann was perhaps his daughter?  He looks to be the Robinson Barnard who born in Ellerton in 1802 and died in 1867.

You’ve certainly whetted my appetite on getting back into some family research, so I’ll let you know if I discover any relevant information.

Many Thanks.

Neil

[jillruss]

Hi Neil,

Sorry for the delay - I've been glued to the French Open tennis!

I think you're right: it seems in 1841 Ambrose Barnard and John Thruston Tindall lived next door but one to each other in Spaldington. By 1851 Ambrose, wife and Robert are living at the Red Lion Inn, Anlaby (I know it well!) and John T and family are living in Roos, but his daughter Sarah Elizabeth is down as being born in Spaldington so definitely the same family and it looks as if both families moved for some reason. Also, John T has a different wife: he married Christiana Wells in 1846 and it looks as if first wife Mary died either 1841 or 1842 (acc to FreeBMD).

The Ann Barnard who is living with Ambrose in 1841 appears to be the daughter of Robinson and Ann Barnard and was baptised 1827 in Bubwith. Robinson B married Ann Thompson in Bubwith 1826. I remembered coming across a baptism for a Robinson Barnard in Skidby in 1820 but this is obviously not him though may be connected, with such an unusual name (he was illegitimate son of Rebecca). However, the likely one is baptised in Ellerton either 1793 or 1802 (not sure which).

Interesting that you found some Ogram families in the Roos area - it probably is the answer to the use of the name but we may never know.

The Skidby PRs have a burial for William natural son of Mary Barnard but no baptism so I'd assume he died before he could be baptised. Apologies for mistakenly saying it was a baptism in my last post.

Still no luck finding Mary (Ambrose's mother) on the censuses. The nearest I can come for Mary's burial is Hornsea 2 Aug 1844 age 52 but down as Burnett. The age is bang on but I still can't find this Mary on the 1841 census either.

Also - and this is probably totally irrelevant - I looked for possible other illegitimate children for a Mary Barnard, Barnett etc and came up with one baptised at St Mary's, Hull 2 Dec 1811 and - I kid you not - her name is in the PRs as Caro Pease Barnett, illegitimate d/o Mary. I don't suppose that means anything at all to you?

My head is spinning!!


Jill

[Vokesy]

So Sorry to interupt on this thread , we have a Robert Ogram Vokes Born 1832 , cant find any info before that we think the Ogram might be his Fathers name

[Vokesy]

Ogram is still used as a middle name in the Vokes Family
This is SO INTERESTING

[neilbar]

Hello Vokesy,

No problem because that information looks to be very interesting.

On an earlier message to this thread, Ibbo200 referred to an 1851 Census entry where George Vokes, who was born 1834 in Garton, was living with Ambrose, Mary & Robert Ogram Barnett.  George is entered as Ambrose's nephew.

I'd already noted this information in my family notes, but for some reason didn't pursue the Vokes line of enquiry any further.  However, I did find that a George Vokes married Mary Ann Hallett in Pocklington in 1862.  It seemed to me to be the same George Vokes. Are you related to George?

The fact that you have a Robert Ogram Vokes born in 1832 and your family still uses Ogram as a middle name certainly seems to tie in nicely with the use of Ogram within the Barnett family tree.

Robert Ogram Barnett, born in Spaldington in 1839, was my GG Grandfather.  His second wife was Annie Adamson and she was born in Garton (as was George Vokes), so this again suggests a strong connection between the Barnett and Vokes families.

I'm not sure where this takes us, but it appears to be heading in the right direction!

Many Thanks.

Neil