William Coutts: Dundee, 1800s

[loobylooayr]

Hi Fide,
Sorry if I wasn't clear but the William Coutts I was looking for on the 1841 Census wasn't born in Greenock but just resident there. He is the man Gali mentioned in an earlier post living at The Vennel who was a Flax Dresser with the birthplace recorded as Scotland.
Chances are he is Sarah's husband still working in Greenock while for some reason she has travelled to and is living with her family in Arbroath.  Your theory sounds plausible and great but as you say we will never know.
And how to tie this man to Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith?? Well it's not going to be easy. Perhaps burial records?? Families often end up in the same plot. Alexander snr is already dead before William. If they died in the same place they could have ended up in the same lair. Same with his Mother Isabel. Did she outlive William?  Could she be buried with him?
Which of William's surviving children are you descended from?  Do any of their offspring or their siblings offspring bear names (especially middle names) which could link you to Alexander and Isabel?
My grandfather's sister wondered all her life where her middle name ( Nicholson) came from. Turned out it was from her great-grandmother on her father's side who had died 20 years before she was even born!!  She never knew this, she was long dead before I started my family tree research and discovered the connection.
Sorry to fire a lot of questions at you but they are just some ideas that might....the big MIGHT...help and get a result. Hope you manage to find the missing link.

Looby

[Fide et Fortitudine]

I descend from William's Coutts's son, Alexander Coutts.  Hence the obvious name link between the grandson and possible granddad.  But then Sarah Douglas's dad was also called Alexander! 

Also, just to confuse things, one of the sons of my Alexander Coutts was called Alexander, and one of his sons was too! Obviously an important name in the family. 

There are no Isabels/Isobels/Isabellas/Bellas or Elizabeths in my direct bloodline, other than women or the mothers of women the male offspring married.  But no daughters of those names.  Mind you there are no Sarahs either, and William's wife was Sarah. 

The children of the first Alexander (i.e. son of William) were:

(1) Mary Ann - I'm guessing named after Alexander's two sisters who died as children, Mary and Ann
(2) Alexander, Jnr.
(3) Jane - can't see the connection with this name
(4) Jessie - named after her mother, Jessie Birrel Mckay (Alexander Coutts's wife)
(5) Stewart McKay - McKay comes from his mother, not sure where the Stewart comes from

There might be more obvious name links to Alexander Couts and Isabel Leith with the offspring of William's siblings.  If he is indeed their 10th child, the earlier siblings might have named their children Isabel first!  But I'm not sure I want to go down the very laborious route of exploring all the children of 9 siblings and their marriages, especially when I'm not 100% sure if they are the real siblings. 

To me, the 1813 OPR birth cert of William Coutts at Dundee, near Murroes is a strong lead, and the fact that all the other 9 were christened at Murroes, and William was born at Murroes.  William's grandchildren and descendants called Alexander is another strong link. 

OPR Deaths & Burial search for an Isobel Leith in Arbroath between 1841 (her last census) and 1884 (before statutory death regs.) yielded 2 possible Isobells:

(a) 4 Jan 1844  Isobell Leith, widow of ALEXANDER COUTS MILLER, born in the parish of Arbroath, died in the parish of St. Vigeans, aged 70 of old age.  Witnessed by John Coutts. 
Laid before Alexander Tyrie* (?) stone, row 26, grave no.5 on 6 Jan 1844

4 years later:
(b) 6 Jan 1848 Isobell Leith - GIRL - so this is a child, not potential "Granny Isobell"

So the first one is possibly William's mother.  But all this death reg. tells us is that she was the widow of Alexander Couts (who was a Miller by occupation) and probably had an elder son named John (which fits that list of 10 children).   

Found the OPR Death for Alexander Couts too:  In the parish of Arbroath, 21 Jan 1832, a Miller, resident at Ferguston, died of a fever, aged 72, married, born at BIRS, laid nearest to Alexander Chrichton's grave (there's that Chrichton reference again!).

Can't find my William Coutts's OPR death, only the one for the Tanner born in Barry, which can't be him.  Stat. deaths from 1855 don't come up with anything either. 

So, still stuck!  But still stubbornly trying! 

Thanks for all suggestions, Looby. 






 

[Gali]

Hi Fide, could be that BIRS is Birse in Aberdeenshire ... there is a birth of an Alexander Coutts registered in the OPR in 1762 in that parish, father a John Coutts

[Fide et Fortitudine]

Great, another area to explore!     It makes sense that the first son of Alexander Couts & Isobel Leith was called John then.  But are these guys my William's parents?  That's the stumbling block so far. 

[Gali]

Yes, you may never find the parents of your William ... the OPRs are frustratingly incomplete and researching in pre-census times is not easy.  Progress is sometimes possible but not straightforward and you may have to use unorthodox methods such as researching in detail the lives and times of the other nine children of Alexander Coutts and Isobel Leith ... and then find out that they are not linked to your line after all! 

[loobylooayr]

Yes Fide - a lot of work researching siblings I suppose- with no guarantee it will bring you conclusive proof.  Although I meant the offspring of William's children....but still it's a major undertaking.
The burial record of Isabel Leith certainly appears to be the Coutts mother. And I do think chances are strong that the William born to the couple in 1813 is your William. What a pity the poor chap died before 1855 and the registration of deaths because death and burial records are so sparse. Good luck with finding his burial. Some local family history societies transcribe Monumental Inscriptions and make their own records of graveyards....As I said previously I'm no where near Arbroath (never even been/ got a notion to now ) but I'm sure the town will have a family history society. Just came across a website called  www.deceasedonline.com  which might be of interest to you (pay to view, I'm afraid).

Good luck with your hunt.
Looby

[Fide et Fortitudine]

*Sigh* yes, it's hard work, but I'm not giving up yet!   

I have a really strong feeling that something obvious is staring at me in the face and I've been overlooking it.   

I'm getting suspicious about this Sarah McLarty connection again.  I found that that one William Coutts had a daughter with Sarah McLarty christened ISABEL COUTTS on 7/12/1840 at St. Vigean's Parish.  Of course this doesn't mean that this William is my William, but if I can establish that this Sarah McLarty is in fact Sarah Douglas, then it's looking promising.

I found a Sarah Douglas, wife of an Alexander McLarty, in Craignish.  They were married in 1802 at Craignish and had at least 4 children together: Mary, christened 1803; Donald, christened 1805; Duncan, christened 1808; and Alexander, christened 1818.  Couldn't find a death reg. for Alexander McLarty, but it's possible he died and Sarah reverted to her maiden name before moving to Greenock (and meeting my William Coutts). 

One problem is this Sarah Douglas (McLarty's) father's name is given as Peter Douglas on the marriage cert. 'My' Sarah Douglas's father was Alexander.  Unless his name was Peter Alexander or Alexander Peter?!  The fact that none of Sarah McLarty's children are named Peter but there is a son called Alexander might suggest this. 

Another problem is that Sarah Douglas McLarty first got pregnant in 1802.  Even if she was very young at the time, say 14 years old, she would have been born around 1788 minimum.  My Sarah was born circa 1813-1816 according to her death cert. and the 1851 census, i.e. well after.  I know one can't rely too much on the accuracy of ages on old records, but could they be out by such a large margin, 25 years?  It's a bit of a stretch.  If she was born c. 1788 and if she did have William Coutts's children later, the last child to survive that union was born 1845 - meaning that Sarah McLarty Douglas was about 57 when she gave birth?!  Not possible. 

Another question is what happened to Sarah McLarty's 4 children if she is the same Sarah who moved to Greenock?  The youngest McLarty child would have been aged about 15 and the eldest about 30 if/when Sarah met William Coutts in the early 1830s, so it's not inconceivable that the children were already working or living with relatives elsewhere or some of them might have died.  But that's just guesswork.

So, nothing conclusive yet, but Detective Fide is working on it!   

[loobylooayr]

Hmmm...the Sarah Coutts at Keptie Street in 1841 already has a 10 month old daughter Ann. Taking that info as correct she couldn't have been the mother of a baby Isabel christened Dec 1840 (unless it was a child's christening ).
But adding fuel to the fire William Coutts and Sarah Mclarty are the parents of Agnes Wanlass Coutts christened 9/2/1844 St Vigeans Angus and Wanlass is the married name of Isabel Coutts (daughter of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith) who has her own daughter Agnes Wanlass age 15 on the 1841 Census! Hope you could follow that?
I can't find baby Isabel of Freecen  .  Could Isabel be Ann ??
I am now leaning towards Sarah McLarty and Sarah Douglas being one and the same.
William and Sarah Coutts have a daughter Agnes aged 6 in 1851 Census meaning a year of birth 1844/1845. Could she be Agnes Wanlass Coutts??
And why would Sarah be using two different names?? Curiouser and curiouser.....

[loobylooayr]

Please bear with me here....

1841 Census Craignish Argyll

Sarah Douglas    age 60
Alexander Clark age 10
Sarah Clark age 8

Probably a grandmother with her grandchildren. Wondered if this was your Sarah Coutts/Mclarty/Douglas's  Mother.
Looked on Familysearch for births of the two children above. Couldn't find a Sarah but found an Alexander Clark born to a David Clark and ...wait for it Mary Mclarty at Glassary, Argyll 23/1/1829.
Then looked for Clark births with those 2 parents and found an
Andrew Clark born to David Clark and Mary Mclarty 7/4/1836 at ...wait for it...Greenock, Renfrewshire .
There is also a Donald born in 1830 in Glassary Argyll.
So is the child Andrew born to the Argyllshire couple David Clark and Mary Mclarty or two other people with those names? And are Clarks in Greenock at the same time as William and Sarah Coutts?

Now searching the IGI's for a birth early 1800's for a Mary Mclarty gave me a Mary born to an Alexander Mclarty and a Sarah Douglas in Craignish 9/3/1803.
There are other births to the couple (but no Sarah listed) but there is a Duncan a Donald and an Alexander.

So could the lady Sarah Douglas in 1841 be the widow of Alexander Mclarty?
And could the family name be Mclarty , but as was fairly common Sarah reverted to Douglas when she became a widow and did her 'perhaps' daughter Sarah use for some reason both her mother's name Douglas and her father's McLarty. The Campbell name could be a red herring (maybe a middle name or Sarah Douglas's mother's name).

Hope the above all made sense. Gives you a lot more to investigate I'm afraid Fide!!

Looby