William SMITH married 1867 Pilliga, born Brisbane, parents.. John & Isabella?

[iforani]

Hello
I've posted before about my William Smith (g g grandfather). He was supposedly born in Brisbane & lived there until he was about 20. He married in 1867 at Pilliga/Wee Waa (NSW) then moved to Parramatta, Sydney. My mother remembers a connection being mentioned to Petrie Terrace, but nothing else about his earlier life. According to his marriage certificate he was a stockman at the time. He became an engine driver later on in Sydney. I have been investigating his connection to Ellen Smith (Charrington) & to her husband,Thomas Charrington, alias William Smith from Drayton which is on the stock route to Pilliga. One of the photos of my William Smith's daughters bears quite a strong likeness to a daughter of Ellen Smith so I am still investigating this possible link. Another Smith family that has grabbed my attention however is the family of a John & Isabella SMITH, married 05.01.1846 at the C of E Brisbane, Qld. John was born in London, 09.05.1819 & Isabella nee Donald was born in Rothiemay, Banffshire, Scotland in 1829. They had quite a few children including at least one set of twins. The following may be their children or this list may include some children from another relationship? 1845 Eliza Jane, 46, Clara, 47 Phebe Jane, and possibly William, 48 Jane, 49 Walter Robert, 50 Elizabeth, 52 Samuel & John, 53 Isabella, 54 Hannah, 58 Caroline, 60 Clara Edith, 62 Rose Baker, 65 John Thomas Joseph, 68 George Clifford, 70 James Baker, 71 Ernest James. This is 18 children which is unlikely but possible. More likely two families mixed together though.

Isabella died in either 1881 at Irvingdale or in 1922 at Lornsdale Strathpine buried at Lawnton Caboolture, Qld (both places & dates are mentioned in different ancestry sites). John Smith died in 1899 at Lawnton, Qld, buried at North Pine Cemetery, Qld.

I am going to order a birth  certificate for a William Smith born in 1847 to a John & Isabella Smith & hoping to get more info from this, but any help would be appreciated. Maybe I could order the DC of Isabella & this would give more info too. Would appreciate any help if anyone related though to John & Isabella, with photos etc. Thanks. 

[majm]

Hi there,

May I presume you are considering ordering an 1847 document from NSW BDM for a William SMITH, with parents John and Isabella, with reference Volume 49, line 570 ?

If so, then you need to recognise that is NOT a birth certificate you would be ordering.  It is an Early Church Record of a BAPTISM.   As such you will NOT learn very much about William's parents ....  (NSW BDM CIVIL REGISTRATIONS COMMENCE 1856 AND NOT BEFORE THEN)

It is possible that the baptism the NSW BDM document refers to could well be for :
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDX-5BW   however, I am only speculating that it could be.   (John SMITH, Isabella MAGAN, Bathurst)

If you really want to order a birth certificate, perhaps a better one would be from 1858 ...
It is actually for a Caroline SMITH, daughter of John and Isabella.  NSW BDM's then register held at Moreton Bay, Brisbane is where that birth was registered....    ....  And of course, the official transcript would have all the info as per the real deal certificate, and would arrive quicker and be cheaper than the real deal cert.   NSW BDM birth certs even in 1858 should list the older siblings details   as well as where/when the parents married, and lots of other family history info

NSW BDM # 5463 for 1858

A further clue to that Caroline, is that there's an index entry for 1858 at Qld bdm too.   That index gives Isabella's nee name as DONALD....  The QLD BDM ref is B700 (B for Brisbane  ) .....  Qld separated from NSW in 1859  so that would account for duplicate entries....   (Also exact birth date as per Qld BDM seems to be 24 June 1858)

https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=births#


http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

One of the earlier threads (to help others avoid duplicating infor already posted  )

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606139.0.html

[iforani]

  Thanks as ever JM for your well considered advice. The one that I was going to order was V1847570 49/1847 which appears to be the one for Bathurst. Thank you for saving me this money! Great advice...will order the Caroline one.. JM by the way, what does BBP mean when preceding a certificate. When I played around with the qld link to search for births one came up with that Drayton birth that I ordered a Birth cert for 1850 William Smith born to William Smith & Ann Matilda but THIS one that came up said 1854/BBP & a number. What would this be, please? Is this a baptism in 1854? 

[majm]

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justice-services/births-deaths-and-marriages/family-history-research/historical-index-search-tips#Historical index registration number prefixes and codes

When I played around with the qld link to search for births one came up with that Drayton birth that I ordered a Birth cert for 1850 William Smith born to William Smith & Ann Matilda but THIS one that came up said 1854/BBP & a number. What would this be, please? Is this a baptism in 1854? 

1854 is for a Baptism (BBP is Qld abbreviation)

Cheers JM

[iforani]

  Thank you JM, at the risk of confusing this link & a previous one...that William Smith was born & baptised in 1850 (meaning he possibly was born & baptised & died on same day), yet that BBP said 1854. Why would there be  a discrepancy? I just checked my transcript for that Drayton born one & it was a baptismal transcript 1850 not birth sorry. 

[majm]

I don't have any of these documents in front of me to look at and then to try to interpret writing from the 1850s, but may I please ask how you know that a person was possibly born, baptised and buried on the same day .... could it be that there was more than one person      Events on the QLD bdm index are (like all indexes) only as reliable as the person who typed them up, based on perhaps needing to transcribe longhand ! AND if for events EARLIER than 1860, then it is likely they were NOT actually registered in QLD, rather they were registered in what was then NSW, so they should be on both NSW BDM and QLD BDM .... with two different opportunities for mis-readings of the longhand writing from the 1850s ...

Cheers,  JM

[iforani]

Sorry Jm. I have attached the transcript I ordered from a transcript agent. I think that I posted this on a previous link & was given the advice that the child may have been born & died on the same day (because baptised on same day). I never found any death certificate for this child though. I followed it through assuming that he had survived & the jigsaw pieces of this family seem to fit (except born a few years later...still fits within the  realms of possibility though as could have married at age 17 & lied about age). There are even resemblances of photos. On his death cert it said that William moved to NSW at age 12 but this information is not usually correct from my experience when given by the children.  Ok..getting back to this bapt cert...the Qld one gives a date of 1854 which is what struck me as strange. This is the one that I ordered taken from the NSW BDM... V18502530 35/1850 ...Why does one say 1850 & one 1854..I got excited when I saw this as I thought that maybe the child was baptised in 1854 NOT 1850 as on this transcript which would give more validation to the fact that he survived at least to 1854...& maybe beyond..

[wrjones]

I was interested to see your Isabella Donald was born in Banffshire in 1829.

I'm wondering whether she could possibly be a sibling of a George Donald I have in my Tree?He was born in 1832 in Hillbrae,Rothiemay Banffshire in 1832.He married my relative Hannah Hughes at Warwick Queensland in 1854.

Regards
William Russell Jones.