Holywell ( Ysgeifiog) marriage 1833 request please

[London1912]

Thank you David- Yes this is the family. I am trying to prove Mary Ann is daughter of this Joseph and Caty. The Mary Ann dau. of John married someone else, so I have eliminated her! You have given me more info on Cath Howgate. Yes I find her name as Howgate or Holgate! This explains her one son's name Hugh.
I have Joseph and Caty's children as:Daniel Howgate 1794,James 1796-1797,Hugh 1798,John Holgate 1801 Mary Ann 1803-1884,Samuel 1805, Emma 1809,Martha 1812, Joseph 1816.
Daniel Holgate Sugden was a notable music teacher and there is a memorial to him in Halifax church.
Mary Ann (Sugden, Marsden, Ellis, Tilley) was also organist, music teacher through-out her life. As was her daughter Emma Marsden. Her son "Joseph Rubini Tilley" my grt grfther also was a talented organist. His children names are the clue this may be the family. They are John Sugden Tilley, Edward A.Tilley, Joseph Sugden Tilley,Daniel Sugden Tilley, Caty Sugden Tilley,Harriet Tilley, Joseph Athalstane Sugden Tilley, Theophilus R. Tilley, Adelina Rosa Tilley, Arthur Percy Sugden Tilley,Edith L. Sugden Tilley.

[DCB]

Mary moved around quite a lot and if she and John Tilley were both professors of music, there is a slight chance that they may have met and married outside England and Wales.

Another possibility is that one or both are missing from the index. One of my ancestors is missing from the index which I believe was because two of the same name were registered in the same quarter.

The certificate would show the correct father's name but not necessarily the correct occupation.

I have found two marriages for Martha Sugden and her details tie in with that of Mary's sister.

Married George Holdsworth on 9th July 1843 - father Jospeh Sugden a tailor.
As a widow, married Paul Greenwood on 12th September 1850 - father Joseph Sugden a weaver.
On 1851 census as Martha Greenwood born c1813 in Northowram, with Holdsworth and Greenwood children.

At Joseph's baptism in 1816, Joseph Snr is described as a clothier of Northowram.

Most people of the area were involved with cloth in some form and children might describe the exact occupation differently.

There seems little doubt that you have the right family but, as you say, the marriage to John Tilley would help to confirm it.

David

[London1912]

Yes I feel this is the correct family but just wanted to confirm if I could!!!
I did find 2nd marriage for her brother Daniel Holgate Sugden 16 Oct 1823 to Mary Heaveysege in which Mary Ann Sugden is a witness. This also fits in nicely with her still having her maiden name prior to any of her marriages.
I had never thought of them being married outside the country?

Thank you for your help!

[toby webb]

I would like to resurrect this subject and to add to it.
Firstly Mary Ann Sugden 's baptism on 23 Jan 1803 was at St. John Baptist, Halifax.  and not St. Peters.
I continue to search for my gg grand mothers other marriages having only that to Joseph Ellis.
Some further information appears in her obituary  - Halifax Courier  19 July 1884 p5.
Toby

[London1912]

Toby - I have never been able to find a marriage cert for John Tilley and Mary Ann Sugden, Marsden, Ellis Tilley. However I did find a few advertisements for Mr. and Mrs. Tilley as musical instructors in "Welsh Newspapers Online" (http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/home). It appears they were very accomplished having receives their musical education from Sir George Smart, Signor Ziliani. They appear between 1847 to 1849. Then after that date the advertisements are for Mrs. Tilley 1850 to 1867

[toby webb]

Thanks for your comments London1912. I can understand not being able to trace the marriages to a particular church for it is quite possible they were R.C. ceremonies, but how could the Tilley marriage have escaped the national registration system? (First marriage pre 1837) The marriage to John Tilley must surely have taken place for Mrs. Tilley was living in a respectable RC community in Aberdare. Quite a puzzle, T