Roberts Family of Fachwen and Llandeiniolen

[despair]

I think he is yet another different Robert Roberts,He is given as born 1765.The one I have been referring to is born 1775.

Regards
Roger

[Huwcyn]

Ok - am I right in saying that this narrative would be inconsistent with Jane (Roberts) Daniel being the grand-daughter of Robert J E Roberts ?

[despair]

No,I.m saying the opposite.
My contention is that Jane Daniel nee Roberts is the daughter of John Roberts and Margaret Jones who married iin Llanfaglan in 1772 and had children William(1772),Robert(1775),Richard(1783) and Jane.
John in turn is the son(baptism not identified) of Robert J E Roberts as evidenced by the abode given in William(1772)'s baptism
Further,I am saying this John and Margaret are the couple who died at Ty Newydd.In the will(1827) there is reference to children Robert and Jane.

Regards
Roger

[welshpride]

I will throw this in folks.  The reason I have been searching for a John Roberts as father to Jane Roberts is because it was suggested to me that because Jane was also known as Jane Jones, the likely name of the father for her would be Robert Jones or John Roberts (citing patronymics).  When I saw the Roberts family tree had a "John Roberts" in it, born in 1765, I began to suspect he was possibly THE correct father for her, if it could be proven he had a daughter named Jane.  That would also make Jane a cousin to Foulk Roberts, which is extensively claimed here in the U.S.  Now, perhaps the mariner named Robert Roberts is the correct father of Jane, given that he had a daughter Jane and is associated with Ty Newydd.  The only question I would have then was why was my Jane Roberts sometimes referred to as Jane Jones?  Could this man's wife (named Phoebe) have been a Jones?  Would that have played a role in her being known as Jane Jones?  If you can tie Roberts family patriarch Robert John Evan Roberts to Ty Newydd in any way, we may have a real possibility here. 

[welshpride]

Despair and Huwcyn:

Are we able to tie the August 27 1786 baptism of Jane, daughter of John and Margaret to anything
related to what Despair just posted?

[despair]

That is,of course,the record for the Jane that I was proposing..The evidence is "circumstantial" in that there is no abode named/associated with Richard and Jane's birth/ baptisms,even if you accept the move for John and Margaret  from Ty Eiddew (John's parental home) for William's birth,to Bryn Glas(their own home?) for Robert,unknown for Richard and Jane and a final home of Ty Newydd.These locations are close and would make sense.
(It is not necessary that couplefrom Ty Eiddew?Bryn Glas are the couple who end up atb Ty Newydd,it is only a suggestion.
The key  reverse question is-if John Roberts,husband of Margaret,father of William(1772) at Ty Eiddew is not Robert J E Robert's son,who can he be?

Regards
Roger

[Huwcyn]

That seems a plausible connection. The reason I mentioned an inconsistency is that stating that Jane (Roberts ) Daniel was the youngest child of John Roberts and Margaret Jones eliminates 1765 as a birth year for John Roberts. Am I right, Steve, in saying that this is an assumption you've started with, and its probably the only barrier now to making the connections?.
  Since a lot of evidence now points to 1765 being too late, I wonder where this information originated. I'll e-mail the relevant tree owner to ask, as things seem to hinge on it. I've checked the 'Goleuad' (Welsh CM journal - still going strong and worth reading ! ) around Oct/Nov 1872, and there is no reference to the death of Jane Daniel. The relevant Welsh American publication would be called 'Y Drych' , but complete runs of it are apparently non-existent. I wonder if these people could help you in that respect :
http://www.britannia.com/wales/wags.html

I might be going past Llanfaglan in the next month or so - I visited the newer church in error recently - so I might have a look at older graveyard.
 

[welshpride]

My genealogist friend suggested (correctly, in theory) that a woman named both Jane Roberts and Jane Jones may well have had a father named Robert Jones or John Roberts (citing patronymics).

That having been suggested, I then took the fact that Jane was widely reported as a cousin to Foulk Roberts, a son of Robert Roberts by his second wife, and grand-son of Robert Evan John Roberts.  The next step was to check the various public family trees on Ancestry.com.  I have been using the Carl Hankwitz version of the Roberts family tree.  It is here I found a son of Robert Evan John Roberts, who's name was John Roberts, born in 1765.  I have focused on him only because his name would account for Jane being both Roberts and Jones (patronymics), and his reported birth in the year 1765 would allow him to be a father of Jane, born 1786.  That is the only reason I have focused on him.  I have no other proof to go with in any other direction, other than what you folks have suggested.

I am more than willing and happy to adopt Despair's, DCB's and Huwcyn's findings as the most plausible connection because it would also explain the reason Jane would be known as Jones and Roberts.  It also apparently supports a baptism of a Jane Roberts in the late summer of 1786, giving her the proper age, and the only birth for a Jane Roberts I can find in that particular year. 

The only thing I have yet to figure out is if all of this accounts for her being a "cousin" of Foulk Roberts.  If that jibes with what you all have put out there, I will begin working with this as my most likely scenario and begin using it as my model.

I would like as much evidence as possible that this is all correct.  There may still be a few questions, but my intent now is to go back to page one of this thread and begin putting all the theories and evidence together into one cohesive argument that this is fact.

[despair]

My summary of the position is as follows:
The only evidence of the likely birth date for Jane Daniel(nee Jones of Llanfaglan,according to the baptism records of her children,nee Roberts from her marriage record)is from the 1841 census(to be treated with caution because 45 y.o/1786 may be rounded to the nearest 5),and the passage record to USA where she is given as 60 in Aug 1845,i.e born1784/5.
Records are generally of baptism rather than birth which can be any time later,but a working hypothesis for a baptism record is 1784-1786.
Because of the constraint of the cousin relationship to Foulk Roberts and the reference to her as Jane Roberts elsewhere,the favoured record sought is the birth to a John Roberts,son of Robert J E Roberts(aka Robert Jones as per his will of 1795),with patronymic naming giving the reason for the marriage record,and considerations including the nature of database transcribing ("Jane daughter of John Roberts") giving a baptism record of Jane Roberts.

The only record that appears to fulfil these criteria is that of Jane Roberts,1786 Llanfaglan daughter of John and Margaret who may be the same parents of William(1772) "son of John Robert,labourer of Ty Eiddew,and his wife Margaret"
Ty Eiddew is established as the home of Robert J E Roberts at this time by virtue of his own son William's birth there in 1767 and it being his address on his will of 1795.

However,the necessary birth date for such a John Robert(s) is in conflict with published trees.
It is unlikely that he had  a second son John(1765,published trees) while the first was living.
No record for the baptism of any son John has been established,but there is a clear reference to such in the 1795 will.No record of a burial or will has been clearly established(The Ty Newydd John Roberts was a mariner)

Further, no sibling relationship has been established between William(1772) and Jane(1786),or with any other possible sibling Robert (1775) and Richard(1783).The possibility of another John and Margaret Roberts in Llanfaglan can not be discounted.

There is no continuity of abode or similar information to identify John and Margaret in these records.

Having said all that there is nothing I can see at the moment by way of a fatal flaw that prevents the 1786 record being appropriate.

Regards
Roger