Roberts Family of Fachwen and Llandeiniolen

[welshpride]

I have created the following "timeline" of events which fit together according to "despair's" theory.  Please feel free to copy it and insert any additional facts I may have missed, perhaps in a different color of ink.  It's very late here and I'm falling asleep at the moment.  This is what I was able to come up with:

1721   Robert Evan John Roberts is born on 5 February at Bryn Glas, Llanfaglan (Hankwitz tree)

1741   Robert E J Roberts marries Jane Jones on 26 December (Hankwitz tree)

1767   William Roberts, youngest son of Robert E J Roberts is born on 17 May (Hankwitz tree)
   Baptismal record indicates that the family abode at this time is recorded as Ty Eiddew.

1772   John Roberts, laborer, marries Margaret Jones, spinster, on 18 May (Find My Past)

1772   William Roberts, apparently the first son of John and Margaret Roberts is baptized.  The family abode at this time is recorded as Ty Eiddew.

1775   Robert Roberts, the second child of John and Margaret Roberts is baptized.  The family abode at this time is recorded as Bryn Glas.

1783   Richard Roberts, the third child of John and Margaret Roberts, is born.

1786   Jane Roberts, the fourth and final child of John and Margaret Roberts, is baptized on 27    August 1786 (“Rootschat” findings).  The age on her Wisconsin tombstone upon death on 13    October 1872 reads “86 YEARS.” (Frank Slinger tree - photo of tombstone).

1795   Robert E J Roberts dies at Ty Eiddew on 25 June, age 74 (Hankwitz tree).

1823   Margaret Roberts dies in 1823 and is buried on 31 March.  Her age is given as 81,    suggesting a birth about 1742.  Abode at that time was recorded as Ty Newydd.

1825   John Daniel marries Jane Roberts on 27 July in Llanfaglan.  Edward Hughes, Vicar, conducts    the ceremony (various records).

1826   John Roberts dies on 26 May at Ty Newydd, age (believed to be) 80, which would suggest a    birth about 1746. (Records found through “Rootschat”).  He was a widower at the time.     Every entry in the burial records on both pages where John and Margaret Roberts’ deaths       are registered was signed by Edward Hughes, Vicar.

1827    The Will of John Roberts is proven.  It contains references to son Robert Roberts and    daughter Jane Roberts and identifies Jane as the executor and benefactor.  The will refers to    Jane as Roberts and not Daniel, however it is reasonable to assume that women were still    often known by their surname at this time.  At this time it is not known why Richard and    William are not mentioned in the will.  It could be that both had died themselves by that time.

An observation: The above timeline would suggest that the parents of Jane Roberts were John and Margaret Roberts.  Jane had two children.  The names chosen for her son and daughter?  John and Margaret.  Another coincidence?

A note about the abodes involved here.  According to the Welsh census of 1841, Ty Newydd and Bryn Glas can be found on the same page, with only one abode between them.  They can both be found in the 1841 Wales census, and according to one source, all three are located closely to one another.

[welshpride]

The timeline I placed here I pasted from a document I am working on at home.  I'm using it as a reference tool to compare events in the lives of people pertinent to this theory.  I intend to add more detail as I have the chance to.

In looking at this, what came to my mind was the question raised by Roger, which was "If John Roberts WAS NOT the son of Robert E J Roberts, who was he?"  I have a feeling that the owner of the tree I have been following/using as reference, is going to disavow Robert E J Roberts had a son born @1746, as opposed to 1765.  His tree is fairly complete and it does not seem like the kind of tree that would have glaring deficiencies.  Clearly the Roberts surname and shared residences over the years suggests a family relation.  But if not a son, then what?

Then it occurred to me that just maybe John Roberts was the little brother of Robert E J Roberts, which is something I will be looking into.  There is an age difference, Robert EJ Roberts being born in 1721 and John being born about 1746, but not a prohibitive difference.  My wife's oldest sibling was born in 1938, while she was the youngest at 1962, so clearly 25 years difference in age does not discount this as a possibility.  Some real doubting Thomases would say it could be a coincidence, but really? 

As a secondary issue I wanted to raise.  I have been following up on all of your leads from page 1.  Most links I have been able to access, but some sites are premium only.  Would you please pass along the web addresses of the sites you used to provide me with information so that I may consider joining them in order to pay for the privilege of viewing and/or documenting records?

I am currently a full paid member of Ancestry.com, including the UK edition.  I also became a full-paying member of FindMyPast last night.  Any of the records you folks may have gleaned from those websites, I will have paying access to.  Any of those other sites you may have used, please provide me with the info necessary to join them as well.  If I can swing the cost I'll join...

Thank you all again.  Let's keep reviewing our facts to further prove that Despair's theory is in fact a solid hit.  Feel free to suggest adding certain dates and/or events to the timeline, and let me know those links.

Kind Regards,

Steve J.

[despair]

Firstly,I would say the theory is more a compilation summary of all the contributions from Huwcyn,DCB etc.

A few comments

I wonder where the 1721 abode for Robert J E Roberts comes from? It seems like a private exchange somewhere-a pity in case it could provide more info e.g whether Robert had a younger brother etc.(there is a Bryn Glas also in nearby Llanwnda in the censuses)

Ty Eiddew only appears to be Robert's abode for his last child.I don't know whether earlier abodes hold any clues.If I have the right records,one looks like Dolagwnion,perhaps Dola Gwyn? and another I can't make anything of-looks a bit like Tyddyn Riffydd or similar.Now you have FindMyPast you can perhaps have a look yourself.

The marriage of John Roberts and Margaret Jones(1772) was Llanbeblig not Llanfaglan-my typo mistake-apologies

Your 1795 line has John... instead of Robert...

The 1827 will for John Roberts has him as a mariner,whereas both the 1772 marriage and birth have John Roberts as a labourer.Even if the John Roberts of the will is  the wrong one it doesn't necessarily invalidate the 1786 record for Jane,obviously.

Finding the identity and baptism/death of the John referred to as the father of William in 1772 is key as per Huwcyn's previous comment(and perhaps finding the record of 1765 from the published tree)

Regards
Roger

[welshpride]

I believe Huwcyn was going to contact someone working on a Roberts tree to question sources and verification.  That's incumbant on the tree "owner" offering a response.  I'm sure she hasn't heard yet or we would have been notified.  I have contacted a different researcher of this Roberts line but he is only interested in his branch, which doesn't seem to include any of my immediate family.

I have been looking over several Robert Evan John Roberts trees on Ancestry.com, seeking information from those.  It appears that many of those trees mirror each other verbatum.  Now whether that's nine people copying what a tenth has posted, well, valid question?  The one "main tree" I've consulted is the Hankwitz tree, and his profile of Robert E J Roberts simply lists Bryn Glas as Robert's birthplace.  As this is all still developing, I have not yet had the chance to go back and attempt to obtain verification or cite sources.  As you may've been able to tell by what I posted last night, I was half asleep, but didn't want to stop working on it. 

Verification and sources and copying documents, etc., is all still ahead of me, but at least now I feel like we have something that looks promising, but needs testing before we can say with some comfort that we accept these connections as fact.  That's a lot more than I  had a couple months ago, when all I knew was that my ggg grandmother was named Jane Roberts, so I am pretty happy with the results thus far, even in the cases where promising possibilities have turned into no dice. 

My goal at the moment is to assemble all the little bits and pieces into some semblance of a "summary" as you call it and allow it to try and stand the test of trial and time.  I may never know for sure, but I now feel like I will include all of your summary in my history of this family if for no other reason than to give those who follow me something to go on or at least continue to look into, which is a lot more than I had to go on. 

I should also mention that I have placed an ad among local libraries for the borrowing of a book on the history of the Welsh who settled in Wisconsin, and I specifically mean this very group including John Daniel, Jane Roberts and her "family" - Hugh and Foulk Roberts.  It's 73 pages long, and I am awaiting the response of several libraries as to whether or not they're going to send a copy to me.  I have no idea what could be in these pages.  Perhaps further elaboration on the relationship Jane Roberts had with the other Roberts.  Also, I am trying to find any trace of Jane's death certificate which hopefully will bear and exact date of birth and possibly parent's names.

[Huwcyn]

'Early history of the Welsh in the Proscairon district of Wisconsin '  ?

[Huwcyn]

On page 16, the book states that Thomas Robert Roberts ( brother of Foulk Roberts) was an uncle of the Rev John Robert Daniel. It also states that John Daniel and family arrived at the Welsh Prairie district on 24/09/1845.
     J R Daniel relates that they arrived at Blaen y Cae in October 1845, and that the first chap he saw was Thomas Robert Roberts. Catherine Foulkes then ran out of a nearby building, and embraced the elder John Daniel. Its quite difficult not to be moved when you read some of the material, particularly if you know the background of the families and the area they migrated from .

A letter to a chap called Hugh Davies Foulkes from his sister (at home in llanddeiniolen) sends greetings to John and jane daniel. H D Foulkes was a nephew of catherine Foulkes , and both H D F and his sister were coincidentally grandchildren of R J E Roberts by his first marriage to Mary Williams .
    John Daniel (presumably the elder) is referred to as being the 'patriarch' of the settlement, and
the book recounts how he started a Temperance movement in the area with great fervour.

[welshpride]

That's the book Huwcyn.  I have a copy of it written in Welsh, but found several in nearby libraries that was transcribed into English.  I've seen the first seven pages, which were attached as a document to the Roberts tree I cited on Ancestry.com.  I even tried writing one sentence at a time into a Welsh to English translation website and gained some knowledge. 

A Thomas Roberts, age 8, was enumerated with the Daniel family in the 1850 Wisconsin census and I've always wondered who's kid he was.  I believe I traced him to being the son of Dafydd Roberts, Foulk's brother. 

Who was it you wrote to about the Roberts tree?  Was it Carl Hankwitz?

Any thoughts Huwcyn on the timeline I posted?

[welshpride]

Huwcyn:

Based on what you shared from "The Early History of the Welsh in the Proscairon District of Wisconsin," it would suggest the following:

Rev. John Robert Daniel (born 1826) was related to the following people in the following ways:

Jane Daniel - his Mom
John Daniel - his Dad
Thomas Roberts - his Uncle
Thomas Roberts' brother, Foulk Roberts - his Uncle

That relationship, as laid out, would indicate that Jane and Thomas and Foulk were first cousins, all of the same generation, and all Roberts.  Presumably, all three would've been the grandchildren of Robert John Evan Roberts.  At least that's the way I would read it.

If that were the case then that would mean while Thomas and Foulk were the children of Robert Roberts, Jane would've been the child of one of his brothers, which brings us back to the sons of Robert John Evan Roberts and Jane Jones, who were reported in the Hankwitz tree as follows:

John Roberts, reportedly born in 1765
William Roberts, reportedly born in 1767

Funny, when I look at the ages of those involved here, you have two men (Thomas and Foulk), one born in 1820 and the other born in 1826, and both are said to be uncles of a third man (John Robert Daniel) born in 1826.  I think we commonly think of uncles as quite a bit older than we, yet in the dynamics of a family tree, you never know.  For instance, my wife is an aunt to several nieces and nephews who are older than she.

In many respects, this brings us back to where I started all of this: John Roberts (according to the Hankwitz tree, born in 1765)...or...(according to the combined findings of my friends on Rootschat), a John Roberts born much earlier, approximately 1746, a year that would make him one of the first children of Robert John Evan Roberts and Jane Jones, who were married in 1741.

Footnote:

Huwcyn.  I hope it's alright with you, I added a photo of Llanfaglan Church credited to you, posted on  the Hankwitz tree website, to my tree and placed a copy in the file for both John and Jane Daniel, as they were married in Llanfaglan.  You have the credit attached for the photo.

[despair]

I have found a number of other records that appear relevant but I'm not sure how they fit into the picture.

1.There is a burial record for Jane Roberts,Ty Eiddaw,1766-1834
This looks like the daughter from the 1795 will? However I can't find an equivalent baptism.Whether this increases the likelihood of a John(1765) I don't know.

2.Perhaps I am missing something but the 1760s records need careful scrutiny again I think.
In trying to "verify" the Hankwitz tree,I have found baptismal records that "by and large" reflect the list up to Ellin(1761) with parents Robert Jones("Taylor") and Jane his wife.All are listed under Jones.The address is usually Tyddyn Ruffidd or similar,which I can't identify.(there is a Tyddyn Rhyddid in Llanbeblig which has some records associated with a John Evan,see possible similarity of name/addresses later)

3.There then appears a number of records similar to the tree with Anne,Elizabeth,Ellin daughters of
Robert John Evan (Clarke) being buried in 1763.There  are previous LLanfaglan records with John Evan(and wife Mary) being the "parish clarke".I think he dies in 1753 and she in 1766.

4.The trail "resumes" with William(1767),again listed as Jones,son of Robert("farmer") and Jane of Ty Eiddaw.

5.Meanwhile,though the address is somewhat indistinct there appears to be a baptismal 1755 record for Robert and Ellis Jones,sons of John Thomas of Ty Eiddew(?) and his wife Mary Roberts.

6.Just to help matters along there appears to be a "Ty Eiddaw"(preference for the "a"?) in Llanfaglan and a "Ty Eiddew"(preference for the "e"?) in nearby Llanbeblig(both listed in 1841 census.

Plenty of scope for confusion..........particularly on my part.

Regards
Roger