Ruthin or Corwen?

[jones9]

Thanks for your research, unfortunate that a connection couldn't be made there.

I think that the Goodman Jones family who were in Corwen/Chester/Liverpool/Birkenhead seem the most likely that could be related, especially as Sarah was the name of the wife and sister of John (b.1847). Their father I estimate would be born around 1820(?) and then their parents would have been John and Anne from Llangollen. I can't see an immediate obvious link between Sarah Goodman Jones and my Jones family, although perhaps they were not related at all?

To go back later a few generation, I wonder if Margaret (born in Corwen 1863) who married Henry Edward Jones, could perhaps be a distant cousin. Her parents were Robert Peake (b.1836 Corwen) and Martha Thomas (b.1839 Corwen). Robert was the son of Evan (b.1801) and Mary Ellis (b.1804 Llandagla). Martha the daughter of Evan Thomas (b.1797 Corwen) and Margaret Thomas (b.1817 Cerrigydruidion). Peake is an unusual surname in the area and the first to introduce it to Corwen seems to have been an Evan Peake (b.1758 Llandrillo) who moved to Corwen. Again, there's no immediate obvious link here.

Another likely relative is the John Moses Jones, b.1804 Corwen, to Richard and Mary who later moved to Corwen. I can't match him up either. Then there's Thomas shoemaker b.1802 Corwen, later living in Chester.

I think with regard to Thomas that 1776 baptism to Thomas and Margaret of Aberalwen, Corwen (erroneously transcribed as Llandrillo 1775 on FindMyPast) seems the most likely record as virtually all other possibilities seem to have been eliminated now, except of course for John & Hannah's child, who could well be the baptism in Chester unless there's anything else? - I was wondering if Hannah could be in the parish registers of Ruthin or elsewhere as just Ann? I've checked Corwen but with no luck.

If I can find anything relating the above people to Thomas b.1776 to Thomas and Margaret it would seem conclusive. In relation to this the only burial I haven't crossed out for Thomas/Margaret is one in 1793 (Corwen) for Thomas Jones Labourer, in Tre'r ddol, Corwen. In 1794 there's the burial for Margaret Jones, wife of Thomas (Labourer) of Tre'r ddol, Corwen. Tre'r ddol isn't the township in which they lived and there is at least one Thomas & Margaret who lived in Corwen and had children a decade before them, so this one doesn't seem likely but the only one left in Corwen. I think this must be them so they died when Thomas was 17, prompting him to join the Cheshire Fencibles, perhaps, or else they moved to Chester/Ruthin where they were buried.

[jones9]

I think that Thomas Jones, the shoemaker b. ca.1800 from Corwen who moved to Chester, was in fact baptised in 1800 to David Jones (Shepherd) and Margaret. Other children to them were: Mary (b.1804) and Elizabeth(b..1806, Bonwm, Corwen). David Jones and Margaret Edwards married in 1799, both of the parish with witnesses: Elizabeth Edwards, Edward Owens and John Jones.

The marriage between Thomas and Margaret in 1768 has witnesses: Robert Owens and Sara Lewis.

Incidentally, whilst looking for marriages I found one between Goodman Edwards and Elizabeth Hughes in 1802, Corwen, both of the parish.

[despair]

I know that the one connection between the "base born" and " natural born" could not be made but I still wouldn't rule out that Thomas for a number of reasons:-
Looking at the earliest children  Thomas,Edward,Sarah(perhaps an early Sarah Goodman as the next children have Goodman in their name)-very familiar family names.
The mother is an Elizabeth the name of Thomas' first daughter.
This Richard,corvicer is therefore probably the father of the Charles Goodman Jones shoemaker in the 1851 census.
I have now found the last born "Hariot" 1797(Ruthin)
If the marriage I proposed is correct it could of course imply that a "natural born son" would be before the marriage of 1773 which might be too early in your eyes.However the Thomas of the Fencibles was illiterate("made his mark") and therefore possibly innumerate(?).Would he necessarily have known his birth date?I think the army record "estimated" his age.
As a last speculation perhaps Elizabeth Humphrey was the daughter of Goodman Humphrey who married in Ruthin in 1735 and she then introduced the Goodman element(very speculative I know).

Regards
Roger

[jones9]

I agree with you that perhaps Richard's son Thomas could be the same, however I really don't think a birth before 1773 is likely - perhaps there is either another marriage or Thomas was born to another woman? His burial record estimates his birth at 1776, as does another census and the military record and other census estimate it at 1780 - I think that it's probably somewhere towards this end of the decade.

If you can find a probable birth for Thomas then it'd be interesting to see which year he was born. I'll have a look at Corwen registers shortly although I don't think there were any other Thomases born in this decade.

Could you give dates and birthplaces of all the children you've found so far? Perhaps as a last thought, would all natural children have been baptised? Or perhaps if born to parents who later married he could have been baptised a few years after birth once his parents had married so he wouldn't appear as 'base' on baptism register?

[jones9]

Having read the will again it seems odd that Thomas, Edward and Sarah should all be 'natural', also as Thomas was one of the executors he would have had to be in Ruthin on 30/1/1801, and he was in Ireland/the Fencibles at this time? It also leaves a property in Ruthin to Thomas, which would of course explain how they maintained a link to the area, but then why are virtually all references to Corwen and not Ruthin?

Perhaps Elizabeth later lived in Corwen? Although would again seem unlikely if she was left property in Ruthin. I've checked Corwen parish registers with no Richard Jones marrying an Elizabeth between 1750 and 1780.

[jones9]

On one level it seems quite simple to accept that Thomas was born, as all references except his military record say, in Corwen, in 1776, but then not everything adds up. There has to be some sort of link to Corwen though.

[despair]

I agree there are a number of difficulties,perhaps solved by a later marriage than the one I first poposed.I'll leave this option on the back burner and go back to the Thomas/Margaret Aberalwen baptism and see if I can make anything further of that.Tre'r Ddol is probably the township in the expression "Dol ac Aberalwen" (?)

Regards
Roger

[jones9]

Yes Tre'r Ddol is close to Aberalwen - so quite possible. The difficulty is that there appears to have only been one Thomas and Margaret who had children in the area ca.1760 to ca.1790. Other children were:
John 1772 Llygadog (died same year)
Jane 1773 Llygadog
Thomas 1776 Aberalwen
Evan 1778 Aberalwen
John 1781 Trewyn

All townships are within Corwen parish - the difficulty is if they're all children of the same parents then post 1781 they'd be more likely to live in Trewyn? Unless they moved to Ruthin or Chester?

The only likely marriage is 1768 where they are both of the parish. Margaret's maiden name is Jones. With Sarah Lewis and Robert Owens as witnesses. No immediately obvious baptisms for Thomas except a 1745 to John and Elizabeth in Trewyn. There is a burial however in 1746 for Thomas Jones infant Trewyn - although could be someone else as parents names not given.

I don't want to rule the Richard and Elizabeth family out as the names are quite likely and would explain Goodman bit - just need a link to Corwen or Chester and to find Thomas' birth record. I'll see what I can find.

[despair]

Having re read the will the following is a different view to the one I held previously:

The latter("post natural") children are Charles and Maria(1792),Goodman(1795),Harriot(1797) all baptised Ruthin
This may imply a marriage just prior to 1792 and a different possible birth year for Thomas.
As the others are "natural born" are they in the records under Elizabeth's (maiden?) surname,whatever that is?
The Thomas Jones,executor,is possibly Thomas Jones of Castle Street in the text(brother of John Jones the Younger?),and not Thomas the natural born son.

Regards
Roger