Author Topic: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children  (Read 34743 times)

Online Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #72 on: Thursday 29 December 16 09:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jenni,

Jonathan Gilbert (1823-1896) was the son of Thomas Gilbert (c1782-1877) and Sarah Forsyth.  I do not know who Thomas’ parents were, but y-DNA tests have proved this Gilbert family is the same as the other Gilberts of Lurgan/Aghagallon.

Thomas Gilbert and Sarah Forsyth had:

William Gilbert (c1805-1877) m. (1849) Anne Anderson (c1820-1904)
Thomas Gilbert (c1806-1888) m. Sarah Pedlow (1807-1880) – went to Australia
Annie Gilbert (c1807-?)
Jane Gilbert (c1808-1879) m. (1834) William Vaughan (c1805-1886)
Richard Gilbert (c1814-1891) m. (1855) Sarah Gilbert* (1816-1876)
Sarah Gilbert (c1817-1882) m. Alexander Humphreys – went to New Zealand
Jonathan Gilbert (c1823-1896) m. (1854) Mary Gaskin
James Gilbert (c1824-1906) m. Eliza Jane Gilbert* (1819-1891) – went to New Zealand

 *Sarah Gilbert and Eliza Jane Gilbert were daughters of Stephen Gilbert (c1780-1836) and Anne Jane Jones (c1785-1861) of Aghagallon.

Gilby

Online Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #73 on: Thursday 29 December 16 12:13 GMT (UK) »
I managed to get to PRONI before Christmas and looked up more of the leases I mentioned on page 7 of this thread.   In these leases it is not always clear to me whether they are referring to the “Middle Row Tenement” (original lease of 1695 to Jonathan Gilbert who built a house there) or the “Passageway to the Black Hole Tenement” (original lease of 1717 to Jonathan, son of Jonathan Gilbert).  I’ve just put everything in chronological order.



In 1695 Jonathan Gilbert (carpenter) got a lease of a plot in the centre of Lurgan from Arthur Brownlow (otherwise Chamberlain).  Jonathan was “of Derrynashee” (Derrynaseer) which is a townland near Aghagallon (where some of the family still is to this day).

The property was adjoining the northwest end of the market house, 20 feet long and the same width as the market house, leaving a 6 foot gap for stairs up to the loft of the market house and also access to the black hole (now confirmed as a prison) underneath the market house.  The lease was for the lives of Jonathan’s wife Ann and their two sons Stephen and Jonathan Gilbert.

In 1717 Jonathan Gilbert II took out a lease for the passageway between the market house and the house that had been built by his father.  Jonathan Gilbert I (the father) is not stated to be deceased, so he may still have been living (the 1713 prerogative will may be the date of the will, not the date of the probate?  A separate lease of 1721 confirms Jonathan senior was definitely dead by then). 

This is the tenement known as the “passageway to the black hole.”  The lease was for the lives of Jonathan, his brother Stephen and mother Ann (the same as the 1695 lease).  I think Jonathan must have built a house or shop over the passageway between the market house and his father’s house.

By 1738 Stephen Gilbert, one of the lives in the lease, had died (he died in about December 1737).  Stephen’s brother Jonathan paid the 5 shilling fine to insert the life of Jacob Kirk, son of John Kirk of Lurgan, merchant.  Three feet were also added to the length of the Middle Row property and the rent was therefore increased from 20 shillings to 1 pound 3 shillings (1 shilling per foot).

In 1748 Ann Gilbert (the mother) and Jonathan Gilbert junior were deceased.  Henry Gilbert, Jonathan Gilbert and Thomas Gilbert (all sons of the late Jonathan Gilbert II) had become entitled to the property (Black Hole Tenement, possibly also the Middle Row one?), presumably by their father’s will (pr. will indexed 1747). 

The brothers nominated the lives of Frances Gilbert of Castleblayney, Co Monaghan, daughter of “the aforesaid Jonathan deceased” (Jonathan Gilbert II) aged about 15; and John Gilbert, son of “the aforesaid Henry Gilbert of Linegrew in the County of Meath Clothior” aged about ten years.


Continued on next post...

Online Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #74 on: Thursday 29 December 16 12:15 GMT (UK) »
In June 1776 a fire broke out which consumed “two good dwelling houses, and the market house”.  One or both of the houses were the Gilberts’.  After this the space left by the buildings on the Black Hole Tenement and the site of the Market House was used by traders on market and fair days as somewhere to display their ways.  (The Middle Row tenement was rebuilt between 1785 and 1818 – see below.)

In July 1776, a lease was signed between Jonathan Gilbert and Patrick Caulfield.  Jonathan let to Patrick “all that tenement now in his possession … in the town or Lurgan, Middle Row near the Market House”.  The lease was from the “twenty fifth day of March last”.  There is no mention of the fire or any damage.

In 1785 there was another renewal of the Black Hole lease.  Jacob Kirk had died and Frances Gilbert had married John Turner of Lurgan (who is later described as a shoemaker).  By a “mesne assignment” John Turner had become entitled to the premises contained in the original lease.  He nominated the life of Henry Gilbert, son of “the late Jonathan Gilbert of Lurgan”, aged 25 years, to be inserted in the place of Jacob Kirk.  The other two lives were still John Gilbert and Frances Turner (née Gilbert).

[Could this Henry Gilbert, aged ~25 in 1785, be the same Henry Gilbert of Lurgan who died in 1847 aged ~90?  And did John Turner renew the lease for the Black Hole tenement even though it was derelict and unused?]

On the back of the lease there are notes which say that “Francis Turner died about the middle of 1799 about[?] July” and “John Gilbert son of Henry Gilbert of Lisnagrew died 20th March 1815”.

In 1818 Jonathan Gilbert of Castleblaney sought a renewal of the plot of ground described in the 1695 lease (the Middle Row tenement, not including the Passageway to the Black Hole).  Jonathan was “by mesne assignment or otherwise … in possession of all and singular the aforesaid premises”.  Because all the original lives had died, Jonathan nominated his three brothers, “John Gilbert now of the age of twenty years or thereabouts, Henry Gilbert  aged sixteen years or thereabouts and Thomas Gilbert aged fourteen years or thereabouts, all of or near Castleblayney”.

This 1818 lease mentioned that “the late John Turner of Lurgan shoemaker built and erected a dwelling house of stone and lime and lately dwelt and resided therein until the time of his decease”.

In 1825, Henry Gilbert, “who claims the premises granted by the least of 1717 and lastly renewed in 1785”.  This was the Black Hole Tenement, and Henry Gilbert had obtained permission from the Brownlows to build a new house/shop which was to extend twenty feet out onto what was the site of the old market house.  He wanted to “throw a proper front towards the entrance of the town, and to make what he calls a decent finish to that part of the street”.

In about June 1825 Henry started work on the new building by laying down materials and excavating the foundations.  However, on the 26th July he received a letter from his neighbour Robert Trail saying, “take notice that I hereby caution you against digging up or otherwise disturbing that part of the public street…” 

Brownlow wanted to honour his agreement with Henry Gilbert but at the same time did not want to upset Robert Trail or the other inhabitants, so he (or his agent) wrote to seek the opinion of George Tomb (solicitor?).  Tomb wrote back and summarised that neither the Gilberts nor the Brownlows had done anything with the property since the fire of 1776 and that “49 years is quite sufficient to establish a public right, and that the premises must be considered part of the street, consequently that any person erected buildings upon it will be liable to an indictment for a nuisance.” He went on to said that “Mr Gilbert thro’ whose negligence (or the negligence of his ancestors)” had failed to act upon the property, but he “may very well contest the matter with Mr Trail, and it may be worth his while to try the experiment.”  Other than this George Tomb advised Brownlow not to get involved.

There’s nothing to say whether or not Henry Gilbert managed to complete his building and as far as I can see there are no more leases after 1825.


Online Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #75 on: Thursday 29 December 16 12:35 GMT (UK) »
Questions to be solved…

Who was Henry Gilbert of Linegrew/Lonegrew and what became of him?  Where is Linegrew/Lonegrew – and is it really in County Meath, or could that be a mistake for Co Monaghan?  He had a son John who was born in about 1738 and died in 1815.

The 1785 renewal refers to “Henry Gilbert, son of the late Jonathan Gilbert of Lurgan” who was aged about 25 at the time.  This Jonathan was not the first Jonathan Gilbert (who died before 1721) or his son the second Jonathan Gilbert (who died before 1748).

Both Stephen and Jonathan, sons of the first Jonathan Gilbert, had sons called Jonathan.  The Middle Row property held by Jonathan Gilbert (the first) and the Black Hole Tenement both appear to have come down Jonathan Gilbert (the second’s) side of the family*, so I guess Jonathan mentioned in 1785 is son of Jonathan, son of Jonathan?

(*There is a 1721 lease of a property in Middle Row to Stephen Gilbert and his widow Christian (or Christon), but I think this was on the other side of Jonathan Gilbert (the first’s) house.)

Was Henry born c1760 the same Henry Gilbert, yarn merchant, “one of the last of the old Irish Volunteers” who died aged 90 in 1847?  And is it the same man who tried to build a new shop/house on what was the Black Hole Tenement in Lurgan in 1825?

Who was Jonathan Gilbert of Caslteblayney and his three brothers John, Henry and Thomas?  Who was their father?


Online Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #76 on: Thursday 29 December 16 12:49 GMT (UK) »
TedG-H,

Thanks for pointing out I was missing Henry Edward Gilbert?  Would you be able to send me the image of the birth certificate?

Ted and Jenni,

I've got my Dad's family finder results on Gedmatch too, so I'd like to compare to yours out of curiosity.  We're not descended from the Gilbert-Douglas branch so we might be too distant to show up as a match.  (Ted I think you can now or will soon have enough posts clocked up to be able to send private messages.)

Offline jennigal923

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #77 on: Friday 30 December 16 18:40 GMT (UK) »
I apologize - I'm guessing you will need my dad's kit # for Gedmatch: - T730402

Jenni