why would you want a black sheep?

[a-l]

Penknife ? lol

[KScott24809]

"working class aristocracy "  what does that even mean? It's an oxymoron if ever there was one. I'm guessing you're trying to elevate your own working class ancestors above other working class people of the day by using an ill-fitting term to define yours as being the highest echelons of said class?

I'm not a judgemental person generally, but reading your post it comes across as quite arrogant; when including the rest of the content, not simply your inability to avoid the manifest contradiction of your lexical choices.

I'm British, of mainly Scottish and English ancestry, and I think so called "black sheep" are par for the course. I don't seek them out, I don't hold a party every time I find them. However, they are certainly interesting, they have character, and there is a hell of a lot more information on them than other, what could be titled by your description "bog standard", family members. Many of these "black sheep" are victims of the age in which they live; poverty was rife, and the lower classes were discriminated against massively. They're not "nasty" for the most part. The fact you're also trying to generalise it to some kind of "English" (incorrect use of demonym by the way) phenomenon, is ludicrous and your evidence, spurious.

[Graham47]

Working class aristocracy does exist although many would not recognize such existence. Engles certainly did (I'm dragging out my memory here sorry) - as the search for material gain and status so no, it is not an oxymoron although superficially it might seem so. Those in the printing trade or those of us that went into such jobs as tool-making or low level employment in the civil service or office work would certainly recognize if not admit to it's position within our social strata. 

Black sheep as victims of the age? Well that's a moot point, we all live within and comply with the age into which we were born and what we may call deadbeats and chavs today is but an extension of the demonization of the working class of yesteryear where they were named "whipper snappers" or "hooligans" (see Hooligans and rebels: an oral history of working class childood and youth 1889 1939, HUMPHRIES Stephen)

Black sheep? Bring e'm on, we should lay claim and be proud of all of them!

[stormtroop]

 not simply your inability to avoid the manifest contradiction of your lexical choices.

 I don't hold a party every time I find them.  The fact you're also trying to generalise it to some kind of "English" (incorrect use of demonym by the way) phenomenon, is ludicrous and your evidence, spurious.

First line , Wot??   demonym eh??. I thought this was the " Lighter Side, funny I reckon this thread was going well?. I have already "touche-ed" and commended the contributors for educating me and proving me wrong, and we have shared a few heart warming moments about our ancestors, So what is suddenly going wrong here?.

Second , YEAH, lets hold a party!!    lets fill the room with the black sheep , wash the wool, scratch their little ears , kiss their little noses, and down the hooch.

And as I posted earlier, I think I might have found a few pandemic deaths in my family. Nowt like a disease or two.

[jess5athome]

Working class aristocracy does exist although many would not recognize such existence. Engles certainly did (I'm dragging out my memory here sorry) - as the search for material gain and status so no, it is not an oxymoron although superficially it might seem so. Those in the printing trade or those of us that went into such jobs as tool-making or low level employment in the civil service or office work would certainly recognize if not admit to it's position within our social strata. 

That's quite an interesting point Graham, when I served my time as a welder and eventually went into the workshops / fabrication shops at the "Plant Works" at Doncaster I always thought that the fitters in the "Tool Room" held themselves in higher esteem than they did everyone else, I could be wrong of course, that's just the way it seemed,..................
Anyway, never one to be beaten I changed my trade from being a "Welder" to calling myself a
"Metal Fusion Technician" 
Frank.

[jess5athome]

YEAH, lets hold a party!!    lets fill the room with the black sheep , wash the wool, scratch their little ears , kiss their little noses, and down the hooch.

Hi stormtroop, put me down for an invite to that, 
Frank.

[a-l]

Here I am ready for ear scratching and nose kissing.

[iluleah]

Something has always fascinated me about the English, why do they like the idea of a black sheep in the family??.  Do tell , what is the appeal!!, I do not have any of those, all skilled working class aristocracy in mine and proud of it, Scots non conformists, maybe it is the morality, but somehow going off the rails really never appealed.

I do find the English obsession  with having something "nasty" in the family bloodline and then making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses for it, when everyone else was working and staying  on the straight and narrow really intriguing .
Oh I have a book on English executions so I love reading about how your ancestors were dispatched.

  Nice to know your judgement on the 'English' and obsessions.....but all this 'English' has found is hard working very ordinary ancestors and I had to start searching the branch lines to find any 'black sheep' which were interesting, great learning about other records I had not previously researched........ so for me I would say " Hope your ancestors are rich or rogues, as there are more records about them to research"

As for "making sentimental "non judgemental "excuses" .....human beings are hard wired to organise information and make what they find logically understandable.

Trying to make sense  today of often Victorian moral judgements about some of those dreadful 'crimes' people committed such as a maid stealing her mistresses handkerchief which the maid was awarded transportation to the other side of the World for, so with today values I personally I  think that was very harsh, my 'thoughts' change nothing, if she was my ancestor ( who are precious to me) I would defend 'her' but as a family historian the records she generated because of it interests me.
Your ancestors and what they did don't change whoever they are and what your ancestors achieved or the crimes they committed are not 'yours' to personally feel proud or ashamed of.

[stormtroop]

Yes, I think we can not judge our ancestors by our own standards, what would!! ?? they think of us    . -- probably.

Sometimes what others think of our ancestors sometimes is difficult to take,  this evening ,I have just had someone think one of my ancestors died a suspicious death, the manner of which has rather disturbed me and has had me set on a genealogical detective quest which I am sure will amount to nothing, but I am sure I will have to get expert opinion on this. My reaction to the possibility of some one else's black sheep, and a not cuddly one whose nose one could kiss,  surprises me and makes me feel protective over my ancestor in a way  I had not previously felt, something I did not expect.

As far as working class aristocracy is concerned, I am not concerned with oxen being morons, never thought they were  . they have nice big noses too.

I said to my old dad, as I tapped the electric storage radiator with my index finger; " 'arrystocracy, that's us, working class 'arrybleedin'storacy". nuff said , end of.



As to the "characterful" black sheep we can accept , take yer partners the " nose kiss square dance" and the "ear scratch waltz"