"Sensitive information" vs Freedom of Information

[Matt R]

Hello all,

I am writing this with a great degree of frustration, having seemingly no way of accessing Scottish Roman Catholic records to find out more about my ancestors.

During the course of writing a book about my family in the Motherwell area, I have for a long time now been meaning to find out about accessing baptism and confirmation records. I've always put it off because I tried a few times and could not contact anyone at the parish. Today I've tried again and after talking to a relative, I have a few issues.

Firstly, I'd like to know if anyone else has tried accessing records from this parish. I've just had a fairly difficult time trying to get some records copied from a parish in Glasgow, and it seems that the Catholic church is always trying to prevent people from accessing the registers themselves (even under supervision) and it's beginning to seriously get on my nerves. At first I was told the records contain sensitive information and thus could not be opened to me. But surely if that was justified, then why is ScotlandsPeople slowly putting some Catholic records online?

There's also the issue of the priest in question. A relative of mine who made an inquiry last year told me that she had to wait a number of weeks before anyone got back to her at all when she queried a burial date. She tells me that the priest is extremely busy and that there's no secretary there to take care of matters like the one I am trying to progress with. Surely there must be someone who can look some things up for me? I have quite a list and frankly, I know the priest wouldn't want to spend hours looking through registers for my family, and the fact therefore that nobody else is allowed to do it seems like I'll never be able to find anything...not even my grandmother's baptism.

Third, after phoning the Diocese this morning, I was told that only the parish have records. I'd wrongly thought that the system was similar to that of the Church of England, where copies were sent to the bishop at quarterly intervals.

I am sure other people have had similar frustrations - I've met a few with this common annoyance in the chatroom, and I am wondering if, legally, my right to information in any way overrides the church's stance that information is sensitive and therefore off limits to the public.  I really need those records to progress with my book and at the moment I cannot help but feel rather defeated. Is there anything else I can try?

I'd appreciate any help on this. I'm sure a lot of chatters will want to know too and thought I'd ask to see if anyone has found themselves facing a similar challenge and has won.

Thanks,

Matt.

[aghadowey]

To begin with I think you are being totally unfair to that particular priest in particular and clergy in general.

Clergy of all denominations have extremely stressful and busy jobs, with huge responsibilities and are often in charge of more than one congregation. They tend not to have a host of secretarial staff to do some of their paperwork, answer the phone, etc. Dealing with church services, writing sermons, organising staff and lay persons, visiting hospitalised and housebound people, looking after the welfare of a large number of people, counseling the bereaved and troubled as well as attending meetings and church functions, paperwork... all of which leaves little time to check through records (which may not be stored in a convenient place) for something that may or may not be found.

It's not uncommon for people to contact them almost demanding to find a particular record (I've heard of many examples covering several denominations) with little or no thanks given. It's also not uncommon to later find that the events being searched for took place in a completely different church. Due to the above reasons some clergy have made a policy of not answering any queries and much as I can sympathise with someone wanting to research their family and find answers to their personal questions I do understand why church records are not as freely available as you might wish.

Lastly, it might be wise to edit your post slightly by removing identifying details of a particular person and keep your comments more general.

[RJ_Paton]

Firstly, I'd like to know if anyone else has tried accessing records from this parish. I've just had a fairly difficult time trying to get some records copied from a parish in Glasgow, and it seems that the Catholic church is always trying to prevent people from accessing the registers themselves (even under supervision) and it's beginning to seriously get on my nerves. At first I was told the records contain sensitive information and thus could not be opened to me. But surely if that was justified, then why is ScotlandsPeople slowly putting some Catholic records online?

The Catholic records on Scotlands People come from the Catholic Archives who have some of the records but not all. The records are the property of the Parish and they are not obliged to hand them over to the Archives.

HAve you tried the archives ? http://www.scottishcatholicarchives.org.uk/

There's also the issue of the priest in Carfin. A relative of mine who made an inquiry last year told me that she had to wait a number of weeks before anyone got back to her at all when she queried a burial date. She tells me that the priest is extremely busy and that there's no secretary there to take care of matters like the one I am trying to progress with. Surely there must be someone who can look some things up for me? I have quite a list and frankly, I know the priest wouldn't want to spend hours looking through registers for my family, and the fact therefore that nobody else is allowed to do it seems like I'll never be able to find anything...not even my grandmother's baptism.

Whilst I feel your frustration the Church probably receive quite a number of similar records all of which are deemed as important to the Inquirer as yours are to you. There is also the not so minor problem of finding time to carry out extra work which in your case you admit is "quite a list". Many churches (regardless of denomination) are run on limited budgets and some simply don't have the staff to cover every eventuality.

Third, after phoning the Diocese of Motherwell this morning, I was told that only the parish have records. I'd wrongly thought that the system was similar to that of the Church of England, where copies were sent to the bishop at quarterly intervals.

Different Churches different procedures.

I am sure other people have had similar frustrations - I've met a few with this common annoyance in the chatroom, and I am wondering if, legally, my right to information in any way overrides the church's stance that information is sensitive and therefore off limits to the public.  I really need those records to progress with my book and at the moment I cannot help but feel rather defeated. Is there anything else I can try?

Legally you have no right to the information. If you are referring to the Freedom of Information Act then it doesn't cover this. If you are referring to a more general "its my family" type of ownership then again you have no rights.

[majm]

Hi Matt,

I wonder if you are looking too deeply at the problem.  I wonder if the issue confronting the Parish Priest is simply one of finding the time to undertake that research on your behalf.   I wonder if you have gone to your local Priest and offered to volunteer some of your time to transcribe any or at least one of the local registers.

Once you have shown your local Priest that you not only know how to read those older styles of handwriting, but also that you know how to conserve the registers, then your local Priest may well be prepared to support your request of that distant Parish Priest, and ask for him to provide you with access to those registers that include your ancestors records.    Of course, in either instance, there may well be expenses that those Parishes may need covering, so it is always sensible to couch your requests with an enquiry as to any fees or charges that may apply, or the details of their current program for donations.

When I have needed access to Church Registers, I have found that if I offer to transcribe part of a register that has not yet been transcribed, that there is a great deal of co-operative efforts among everyone at that particular church.   I am in NSW Australia, and once I have gently provided evidence that I can read the 19th Century long hand, AND assist with conserving the register, I have not ever been denied assess to a register.   I have transcribed various registers for denominations including Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and Salvation Army.    Some registers have been found (by me) as door stops, foot rests,  stools to stand on.  Once the locals understand that I am not interested in complaining about past treatments of these registers, but more about saving the records, and that I am willing to give my own time, then I have not met any difficulties at all.

I usually approach via the denomination's local church (local to me), where it is likely there will be members of the congregation who know of my volunteer work in several different organisations in our local community.   They in turn are in a better position to introduce me to the person holding the actual register I seek.    In NSW Australia, many registers have been transcribed by various Genie societies, and also by the LDS.  But not ALL .....    

Cheers,  JM

[Josephine]

Since the priest doesn't have any staff who can look up the records you want, perhaps you could find out if he would allow a volunteer to do the searching. My suggestion would be to contact any family history societies in that area and ask if they already have a collaborative relationship with the church. They might also know if any indexes have ever been compiled of those records.

If the information is less than a hundred years old (or whatever the church might consider to be too recent), perhaps the priest would allow a qualified volunteer to look up the records if you were to provide proof of your relationship to the people in the records. I know some places require proof of the relationship, plus proof that the person in question has either died or, if still living, has given written permission for their records to be accessed.

Have you spoken to anyone at the Scottish Catholic Archives about whether they might hold the records you seek:
http://www.catholic-heritage.net/Archives/ScottishCatholicArchives/tabid/190/Default.aspx

Good luck!
Josephine

[Josephine]

P.S. When requesting information from a church, I always offer to pay something.

[Matt R]

Thank you all. I have now edited my original response after the concise response from aghadowey...

I am surprised that the parish priest does not have anyone else in his office, and I have accepted that they are very busy people (especially this time of year).

I'll give the Scottish Catholic Archives a call tomorrow as well as the FHS corresponding to the area.

Thanks for your help and contributions,

Matt

[IMBER]

Since these people don't have time to consult the records nor allow anyone else to do so then it begs the question as to what is the point of maintaining them in the first place. Accepting that they are overloaded with other duties the obvious solution is that they be placed somewhere where they can be preserved in a controlled environment and indexed, digitised or whatever.  Having said that the track record of the Catholic Church in Scotland as regards the maintenance of records centrally is less than encouraging:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/historians-win-battle-to-keep-catholic-archive-in-capital-home.22735049

Dare I suggest that the Catholic Church looks to what has been done as regards the records of the Established Church and emulate or even improve on that? Time to get a grip, both locally and centrally.

Imber

[KGarrad]

I'll give the Scottish Catholic Archives a call tomorrow as well as the FHS corresponding to the area.

Which implies that you are expecting an (almost) instant answer?
Isn't it better to write a letter, or send an email?