Bethia Logan from Kilmarnock

[AOWEN]

Bethia Logan is my great great grandmother.  She was born around 1863 in Kilmarnock to William Logan and Mary Ann MCBernie.  She married Robert Owen in 1884 in Renton, Dumbarton.  If you have any more information on this Logan Family please respond.

Thanks, Angela

[AMBLY]

Dear Angela
The IGI has your Bethias's birth:
BETHIA LOGAN  05 MAR 1864   Kilmarnock, Ayr
Father:  WILLIAM LOGAN  & Mother:  MARY MCBIRNIE 

There are 2 sisters also on IGI, Mary & Jemma.

There is an earlier birth of a female of similar name, your Bethia may have been named for her :
BETHA LOGAN  Birth:  20 JAN 1838   
Christening:  11 FEB 1838   Ayr, Ayr, Scotland
Parents: DAVID LOGAN  &    JANET YOUNG     
 
Have you been able checked the 1881 Census for her? Happy to do so for you if you haven't as I have the CD set.
Cheers
Anne

[AOWEN]

Anne, thank you so much for replying.  yes, I would be greatful if you would look her up on the 1881 census.  Also, do you think you could find anything on Robert Owen(s) married to Margaret Miller on that census?  They are my great great great grandparents.  I think they may have lived in Dunbartonshire in 1881.  If not, maybe Lanarkshire.

Thank you so much, Angela

[AMBLY]

Hi Angela
The good news :  ;DHere is Bethia in 1881:

Dwelling:   Tontine Main Street
   Census Place:   Cardross, Dumbarton, Scotland
   Source:   FHL Film 0203548     GRO Ref    Volume 494    EnumDist 5    Page 29
   Marr   Age   Sex   Birthplace
William LOGAN   M   54    M   Ireland
   Rel:   Head
   Occ:   Printer (Calico)
Jemima LOGAN   U   21    F   Kilmarnock, Ayr, Scotland
   Rel:   Daughter
   Occ:   Factory Worker
Bethia LOGAN   U   17    F   Kilmarnock, Ayr, Scotland
   Rel:   Daughter
   Occ:   Factory Worker

Then it all goes downhill   
Can't find her mother Mary (Mary Ann), doesn't say William is a Widower but he may be? Nor her sister Mary (born 1858 so may be married by 1881)

Bethia's husband Robert OWEN:
IGI birth 15 DEC 1863   New Monkland, Lanark to Robert OWEN & Margaret MILLER.
There is a Robert OWEN of right age in C81 Dunbarton but birthplace says Renfrew, and he is la Woollen Labourer lodging with a family named BAIN.
There is a Robert J OWEN of right age in Lanark, born Motherwell, adopted son of MAREWELL family (Irish family), an Iron Moulder.  Any idea if he is either of these? What was his occupation at marriage to Bethia do you know?

Robert's parents:
On C81, none that stand out or match in couple names. Any idea of their approx date & places of birth? From IGI, it appears Robert Jnr had siblings: Susan 1870 DNB, Hannah 1866 DNB, Andrew 1873 STG, Edward 1868 STG - I can't pin ANY of them down on C81 - and I searched in National Index!! Could they have been in Ireland I wonder? Noting the last 2 were born in Stirling.

If there's anything else I can look up or look up again, pls let me know!
Cheers
Anne

[JAP]

I was about to send this when Anne's response appeared - but will send anyway and apologies for duplication.

A couple more snippets from the IGI on FamilySearch at:
http://www.familysearch.org
which might be relevant?

William LOGAN m Mary Ann MCBURNEY, 1 Jun 1850, Neilston Renfrewshire
William LOGAN m Mary Ann MCBIRNIE, 21 Jun 1850, Denny Stirlingshire
(perhaps the same marriage with Banns in two places?  might be your people?)

Mary LOGAN b 3 Jun 1856, Kilmarnock Ayrshire, parents William LOGAN and Maryann BURNEY
(possibly the same couple given that other children to William LOGAN and Mary MCBIRNIE were born in Kilmarnock as Anne mentioned earlier - Mary 1858, Jemima 1860 and Bethia 1864).

I guess you've seen Robert OWENS and Margaret MILLER in the IGI?
A Robert OWENS m a Margaret MILLER, 21 Nov 1862, Campsie, Stirlingshire
People of these names had:
Robert OWENS b 15 Dec 1863, New Monkland, Lanarkshire
Hannah OWENS b 19 Jan 1866, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire
Edward OWENS b 28 Jun 1868, Campsie, Stirlingshire
Susan OWENS b 25 Aug 1870, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire
Andrew OWEN b 26 Apr 1873, Kilsyth, Stirlingshire

You should be able to get more information on the families, especially with the 1855 and later records - including Bethia's birth certificate - from the pay per view site ScotlandsPeople at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

You might also find William's and Mary Ann's death certificates which - with luck - will given the names of their parents.

The Scottish censuses from 1871 on are also on ScotlandsPeople.

JAP

[AOWEN]

Thank you so much for your reply.  I do have Bethia and Robert's marriage certificate.  They were married on October 31, 1884 in Renton, Dumbarton.  It says that Robert is a dye work labourer and Bethia is a dyework hand.  It lists William as a block printer (journeyman) and it does say that Mary Ann  is deceased.   
 It seems like the Robert lodging with the Bain Family may be the one married to Bethia.  Maybe they just put his place of birth wrong.  Does that seem like it happened at times?  Also, I did know that Robert had the siblings Susan, Hannah, Andrew and Edward.  There should also be a Samuel born in 1885.  I have a cousin I have located who is 79 years old.  He lives in New Jersey and his name is Thomas Owen.  He says that Samuel is his father.  He said that Robert Owen and Margaret Miller are his grandparents. 
     Thomas told me that Robert and Margaret had a large family and moved around a lot. 

I have two main goals for doing this research.  One is to of course construct a family tree.  The other is to come into contact with any living relatives I might still have.  My grandfather, Edward Owen moved to the US from Dumbarton in 1946.  He had 3 sisters and 4 brothers himself.  His parents were Robert Owen (born 1887 to Bethia Logan and Robert Owen) and Helen Martin (daughter of William Martin and Helen McIntyre).

I really appreciate everyone's help with this.

Sincerely, Angela Owen
     

[AMBLY]

Hi ANgela
here is the Robert OWENS lodging with the BAIN family - sorry, I said earlier he was in Dumbarton at the time, but it is Stirling

Dwelling:   3 Bridge Place
   Census Place:   Alva, Stirling, Scotland
   Source:   FHL Film 0203536     GRO Ref    Volume 470    EnumDist 4    Page 33
   Marr   Age   Sex   Birthplace
Elizabeth BAIN   U   58    F   Sauchie, Clackmannan, Scotland
   Rel:   Head
   Occ:   Woollen Winder
Ann BAIN   U   31    F   Holtown, Clackmannan, Scotland
   Rel:   Daur
   Occ:   Woollen Weaver (Power)
Andw. WALLS       8    M   Holtown, Clackmannan, Scotland
   Rel:   Grandson
   Occ:   Scholar
Elizabeth BAIN       1    F   Alva, Stirling, Scotland
   Rel:   Grand Daur
Robert OWENS   U   18    M   Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
   Rel:   Lodger
   Occ:   Woollen Labourer

Beware though, there is a Robert OWENS born on IGI 1861 in Paisley, who is not your Robert, but who may be the Robert above with age a bit wrong.
AS none of the siblings or parents of your Robert can be found in 1881, I am less likely to believe personally this Stirling fellow is yours, which may be totally wrong of me...but. 

And  yes, Census ages, places and names can be notoriously wrong at times  . One of  my ggg grandfathers - every bit of data I found on him said he was born in Liverpool - Census, death records, the lot. I eventually found him via Military records and he was born in Dublin! ANother was listed as GORDON on a Census and he was a JORDAN. As for ages, well - it seems to me sometimes that it was a national pastime to fudge ages on the census especially but not always the lasses!!

Another thing is that people often stated their place of birth as where they either BELEIVED they were born at, or where they spent their earliest years but not where born. A surprising amount of people in those days  too, did not even know where they where born or where their parents were born or when, and so this led to a lot of errors & guesses especially on death certs. ALso, a christening at a certain place does not always mean the birth took place there also.

Just thinking - who witnessed Robert & Bethia's marriage and what was their address' at time? Maybe a clue there?

Cheers
Anne

[AOWEN]

On the 1884 marriage certificate of Robert and Bethia, the witnesses are James H. Paterson, Jemima Logan and John Bowie.  Robert's residence is Ann Place, Renton and Bethia's is Tontine, Renton.  It says they were married at Tontine also. It doesn't say that Robert's parents(Robert and Magaret) are deceased at the time.  And you were not able to find Robert Owen and Margaret Miller on the 1881 census.  It makes me wonder if the Owen may have an "s" on the last name (Owens).  It happens to me all the time today, someone puts an "s" on my Owen making me an Owens, even after I spell it out to them and tell them no "s". 
  On Robert Owen's (married to Bethia Logan) death certificate in 1911, It lists his father Robert Owen married to Margaret Miller as a Herbalist.  Do you know what a herbalist is?  Also it indicates that Margaret Miller is deceased at this time, but Robert Owen is not.  Bethia is listed as the witness to this. 
  By the way here is an interesting fact for you.  My brother's name is Robert Logan Owen Jr.  He named his son Logan Alexander Owen.  My father's name was Robert Logan Owen Sr.  My aunt's name is Bethia Logan Owen.  I have an aunt named Margaret Owen.  My grandfather, Edward Owen (who grew up in Dumbarton), obviously named them after his family.

Thank you so much, Angela

[AMBLY]

Hi ANgela

This is getting to be interesting  - I almost wish they were my family 
When I checked the Census 81 it  finds OWENS plural even if I specify OWEN, and  I imagine OWEN folk thru time is always having to deduct  the S others thinks they should have added on  So I discount an S present or not, and concentrated more on forenames, dates etc to try pin down matches.
I checked C81  for the marriage witnesses:

This may be the James H Paterson (he may also have married them???)
Dwelling: Ardeer House
 Census Place: Dumbarton, Dumbarton, Scotland
 Source: FHL Film 0203549     GRO Ref    Volume 496    EnumDist 10    Page 2
 Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James H. PATERSON M 37  M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
 Rel: Head
 Occ: Minister Of Evangelical Union Church Dumbarton
Sarah Lee PATERSON M 26  F Ireland
 Rel: Wife

ANd one of these may be the John BOWIE
Dwelling:   3 Miners Row
   Census Place:   Kirkintilloch, Dumbarton, Scotland
   Source:   FHL Film 0203550     GRO Ref    Volume 498    EnumDist 6    Page 30
   Marr   Age   Sex   Birthplace
William MARSHALL   M   49    M   Rutherglen, Lanark, Scotland
   Rel:   Head
   Occ:   Coal Miner
Mary MARSHALL   M   50    F   Muirburn, Linlithgow, Scotland
   Rel:   Wife
William MARSHALL   U   24    M   Bathgate, Linlithgow, Scotland
   Rel:   Son
   Occ:   Iron Miner
Elizabeth MARSHALL       6    F   Patna, Ayr, Scotland
   Rel:   Niece
   Occ:   Scholar
John BOWIE   U   21    M   Boness, Linlithgow, Scotland
   Rel:   Lodger
   Occ:   Iron Miner

  OR:

Dwelling:   Auchanstarry Row No 29
   Census Place:   Cumbernauld, Dumbarton, Scotland
   Source:   FHL Film 0203548     GRO Ref    Volume 495    EnumDist 5    Page 31
   Marr   Age   Sex   Birthplace
John BOWIE   M   40    M   Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
   Rel:   Head
   Occ:   Ironstone Miner
Jean BOWIE   M   30    F   Baillieston Old Monkland
   Rel:   Wife
Archibald BOWIE       10    M   Baillieston Old Monkland
   Rel:   Son
   Occ:   Scholar
Cathrine BOWIE       8    F   Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland
   Rel:   Daur
   Occ:   Scholar
William BOWIE       5    M   Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland
   Rel:   Son
   Occ:   Scholar
John BOWIE       3    M   Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland
   Rel:   Son
Jean BOWIE       1    F   Cumbernauld, Dunbarton, Scotland
   Rel:   Daur


I checked the Census again to try see who was at Ann Place in Renton (Cardross) in 1881. I found a few address'. One was house of McINTYRE, they seem to have a lot of Lodgers all from Printing industry. There are piles of folk all involved in Dye work, printing etc in the area - so there must have been a works there as source of major employment?. There was also a couple named McKAY, and a couple of widows in one house named MONTGOMERY & McLAREN. But nothing I could place Robert OWEN in 4 yrs later.

A herbalist was someone who concocted potions powders, remedies and cures out of herbs and plants - these were the days before all the rows of pills, I suppose. These days he migjht be called a naturopath? I wonder if this was connected to the fact Robert snr moved about a lot - maybe he was a travelling herbalist (eek, makes it sounds like a snake oil man).

There is such a strong & proud naming tradition in your family! I found info on Web about a Robert OWEN of Wales who ended up in Lanark, a famous socialist etc. He set up a communal society in Harmony Indiana, but went back to UK again.I wonder if some place back he was part of your ancestry? His son Robert Dale OWEN went to US too  I wonder if your cousin Thomas may recall anyone like it in the family if he were asked the question? If you Google a search:
"robert owen" dale
you will find out more on him. It was the OWEN no S + Lanark connection that made me wonder if there was a connection someplace for you.

Cheers
Anne