Dead father named on marriage certificate?

[jbml]

If a marriage certificate gives a name and occupation for the bride's or groom's father, how reliable is that as evidence that he was actually alive at the date of the marriage?

I ask because a couple of times now I have had marriage certificates which happily name a father and give an occupation, when I have no other evidence for the father contunuing to be alive at that date and / or have persuasive evidence suggesting that the father was already long dead.

The latest example is Clara Holmes, who was married in 1857 and whose father is named on the Marriage Certificate as Joseph Benjamin Holmes, Merchant.

I have not been able to find Joseph Benjamin Holmes in ANY census ... although I have a bankruptcy for him in 1846 (dealer in Manure, Hoofs and Horns); and an acquittal at the Old Bailey on a charge of unlawfully assaulting Ann Elizabeth Butts on 12 June 1848. I also have two baptisms of possible sisters for Clara ... but not Clara's baptism.

The only possible death for him, however, was one which was registeres in 1849 (London, Whitechapel 1849 Q1 volume 2 page 487) ... a full 8 years before Clara's marriage?

So ... should I discount this death because he is named on Clara's marriage certificate in 1857? Or should I assume that this is indeed his death, and just be grateful that he was posthumously named on Clara's marriage certificate (because without this i would never have been able to identify him)? I am leaning towards the latter ...

[JenB]

If a marriage certificate gives a name and occupation for the bride's or groom's father, how reliable is that as evidence that he was actually alive at the date of the marriage?

It's definitely not reliable evidence. There have been a lot of conversations on Rootschat on this topic.

It depended on whether the question as to whether he was deceased was asked of the parties to the marriage, or whether they offered that information.

My g-g-g grandfather was named on his sons 1853 marriage certificate together with his occupation. On the basis that it didn't say that he was deceased I spent a lot of time searching for him. I later discovered that he had died in 1835.

[Marmalady]

If the father is marked as "deceased" that is pretty reliable evidence that he died before the wedding

However the reverse is not true. The question asked is "who is your father" -- so if they didnt say he was dead, there would be no reason to ask about it

I even have a marriage certificate where the bride's father's name was not entered at all. I assumed this meant she was illegitimate --untill i found her baptism & several census records showing her with a father that was alive till well after her wedding!

[Milliepede]

I agree and have had several certificates with father not marked as deceased when he was long gone. 

All fathers were usually named (unless illegitimate) on marriage certificates alive or dead.

I would consider getting the death certificate for the death you found - was his wife still alive at the time?  She could be the informant and you will have confirmed when he died 

[MargP]

Hi

Have you checked the marriages for the 2 possible sisters, to see if he was alive on them, I have an examples where on one the father is deceased and on a later one he is not marked has deceased

Margp

[Milliepede]

Was Frances Anna one of the sisters?

She married in 1844 but father was a witness and alive then.

Mary Ann Elizabeth married 1845 - father also a witness.

Joseph is residence in Whitechapel in 1845.

[jbml]

Was Frances Anna one of the sisters?

She married in 1844 but father was a witness and alive then.

Mary Ann Elizabeth married 1845 - father also a witness.

Joseph is residence in Whitechapel in 1845.

That's my family, Millipede!

Thank you