Help in understanding records - Thomas BARTLEY b1835

[avm228]

Then we see from the 1858 Bartley/Styles marriage that Esther's address at marriage was 59 Stanley St (where she was also in 1861 - see previous post), so the 1864 and 1866 certificates must be for her husband, your Thomas.

[carol8353]

I have a tricky relative who allegedly was a sea captain, but the records are very sketchy and although I have him being born in 1835 in Liverpool there is another Thomas Bartley b 1849 who keeps popping up - I don't think they are the same person but can't be sure. 

Thomas Bartley b 1849 cannot be the same as the one who married in 1858 !!!

He'd have only been 9 

[avm228]

Edit:  There appear to be 2 brothers in the same family called Thomas!  The older b1835 was brought up by grandparents and the younger b1849 lived with the parents.

Yes I think you can be confident that your Thomas b 1835 is the one who is with his Plumb grandparents in 1851 at 38 Cumberland St (also with them in 1841).  His address at marriage in 1858 was 38 Cumberland St, tying in perfectly with the Plumb household. Isaac Tate Plumb was one of the witnesses when Thomas married Esther.

I'm not convinced about the 1849 chap being part of the same family. Does that come from the 1851 census in Kersley, Lancs of a Thomas & Margaret Bartley plus 3 children (HO107/2206/23/38)? If so, why is it thought they are the same Thomas & Margaret? None of this 1851 family was born in Liverpool.

[avm228]

Following on from the concern about the Thomas & Margaret Bartley found in 1851, it seems to me in fact that they can't be yours because Margaret Bartley nee Plumb had remarried to a Thomas Kent on 1 October 1837 and died in 1844. 

The 1837 remarriage shows Margaret as a 23 yr old widow, her father named as John Plumb, a plane maker. New husband Thomas Kent was a 27 yr old mariner; both parties gave their address as Cumberland Street.

Margaret Kent, 29, of 38 Cumberland St was buried on 16th February 1844 (Holy Trinity, Liverpool).

She appears to have had a daughter Margaret in 1840 who (like half-brother Thomas Bartley) appears with the Plumb grandparents in 1851.  She is likely to be the Margaret Kent who, together with Isaac Plumb, witnessed the Thomas & Esther marriage in 1858. She herself married Edwin Brown on 12 April 1861, giving her address as Cumberland St and naming her father as Thomas William Kent (deceased), Master Mariner.

[Alirat153]

Gosh - two heads are better than one!  I can't write a full reply because I have to dash out to work (8.30am here in New Zealand) but I have printed out some of the handwritten censusesto try and decipher who was where and living with who. For example I have the family listed as BURKY in the 1871 census - living with Esther Cherry's Sister and Thomas being listed as a sailor.  Maybe it is indeed the father Thomas b1810 that is the fly in my ointment and where I have made a mistake. 

Thanks so much for your kind assistance - don't think my lack of reply is non interest. Only boring stuff like work getting in the way.

[avm228]

The family indexed in 1871 as Burky is indeed yours (the census schedule itself shows that the name is Bartley).  That is the only census in which Thomas and Esther appear together, as per reply #2.

[avm228]

Just so that you have it to hand, the chronology for Thomas' parents seems to be as follows:

1834 (9 March): Marriage of Thomas Bartley to Margaret "Plumbe", St Peter Liverpool.
1835: Birth of son Thomas (baptism not found)
Before 1 Oct 1837: Death of Thomas Bartley snr
1837 (1 Oct): Margaret remarries to Thomas Kent, mariner
1840 (Jun qtr): Birth of daughter Margaret Kent
1841 (census): Margaret Kent snr ("independent") and 1 yr old daughter Margaret are in Liverpool. Her son Thomas Bartley is with his Plumb grandparents
1844 (16 Feb): Burial of Margaret Kent aged 29
1851 (census): Orphaned Thomas Bartley and his half sister Margaret Kent jr are with their Plumb grandparents
1858 (28 Nov): Margaret Kent jr is a witness to the marriage of Thomas Bartley & Esther
1861 (12 April): Margaret Kent jr marries Edwin Brown.

[Alirat153]

Right I see it now. The Bartleys of Kersley Lancashire are not in the same family at all.  I had seen the Kent marriage but dismissed it, but of course that brings all the pieces together. 

Thanks so much for your assistance.  You don't happen to know if the criminal records can be tied to a person's age in any way do you?  Thomas Bartley of the many Larcenys seems too busy being in jail to be fathering a family with Sarah Esther Cherry nee Styles.  Besides, there is a Thomas Bartley larceny that precedes 1836, so perhaps I can rest assured that my ancestor was a hard working honest sailor. 

[Bartley Roy]

Hello Alirat,
I too am trying to nail down Captain Plumb/Bartley as well as his father, also a Thomas, and his grandfather, perhaps called Francis. Was 'Captain' in fact a sobriquet for 'first mate'? Have you seen his portrait on Ancestry? Thomas's son, Thomas Edwin, who was born in 1861, himself became a sailor at the age of 14. At the Merseyside Maritime Museum there is a document dated 1880 referring to TE's transfer to the ship 'The Empire' which states that his father had been washed overboard and gives the father's occupation as that of 'sailor' rather than 'captain'. Have you found anything else about him and what are your family's stories regarding him. All the best, Roy