William Lloyd and Jane from Trawsfynydd

[Gadget]

Hi Ian

On first sight, I'd say that this is an example of very late patronymics - she was Jane daughter of Robert Humphrey - ie. Jane ferch/merch Robert Humphrey  ie Jane Robert(s).


Gadget

[Gadget]

If you look at the 1851 link that I gave:

I've checked for the other Janes born Trawsfynydd  on the 1851.

........................
Jane Humphreys, born circa 1837
HO107/2512/188/4

It lists

Robert Humphrey, 55, labourer, b. Trawsfynydd
Jane, w, 57, b. Beddgelert
Jane, d, 14, b. Trawsfynydd


Gadget

[iansum77]

Hi Gadget,

Thanks for your help.
I wonder about the fact its only on Marriage cert.
Do you think its possible she married to a Roberts before but still put spinster on the Cert?

[Gadget]

 I suggested in my previous reply that it might be late use of the  patronymic form:

Hi Ian

On first sight, I'd say that this is an example of very late patronymics - she was Jane daughter of Robert Humphrey - ie. Jane ferch/merch Robert Humphrey  ie Jane Robert(s).


Gadget

See this article:

http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm


Gadget

[Gadget]

I've found a very relevant piece in the Hayes article:

As you might expect from what I have already said, in the eastern counties, Flintshire, Denbighshire and Montgomeryshire, the number of patronymic marriages after 1837 is quite small, less than 1% between 1837 and 1900, although they are to be found as late as the 1880s even in those counties. However, when we look at the western counties that now make up Gwynedd and Anglesey, the story is very different. For all marriages between 1837 and 1900, Anglesey had 7%, Merioneth 8.5% and Caernarfonshire 13% of grooms using patronymics. If we look at the period up to 1850, the proportion is about double, so that in Caernarfonshire, about one in four grooms used the patronymic. I suspect, when we take account of the marriages which I could not be sure about and those where the bride was using a patronymic, somewhere between one third and one half of all marriages in that period would have had one or both partners using patronymics. Do not forget, I am talking about marriages in the time of the great-great grandparents of most of us.

Ref as previous post.

Dropping of the ap/ferch was the interim stage between the patronymic form and the surname form.


Gadget

[iansum77]

Ok, thanks Gadget.
That opens up a whole new road to my research.
The plot thickens and it gets more difficult but that very interesting article makes sense and now i can understand alot more.
Thanks again.