Todtenregister Folio 22 relating to Latour's Austro-Hungarian Chevaux legers

[richredwood]

Could anyone help with tracking down the "Todtenregister Folio 22" as mentioned in the following death extract. I'm hoping it might contain some further details allowing me to identify Peter Bernard's family.

Todten-Schein
Ich Endes Gefertigter bezeuge hiemit, dass der Gemeiner Peter Bernard von Eupen aus Limbourgisch gebürtig, des löbl. K. K. Latourischer Chev: Leg: Regiments, verheyrathet Standes, 38 Jahr alt katholischer Religion, den 12 Decemb: im Jahr 1799 zu Möskirchen an Nerfenfieber gestorben, und auf den gewöhnliche Ort christlichen Gebrauch nach beerdiget worden seije. Urkund dessen habe dieses Zeugnis aus dem Todtenregister Folio 22 gezogen, mit eigen-händiger Unterschrift, und meinem gewöhnlichen Insiegel bekräftiget
Zo geschehen: zu Gaja in Mähren den 8ten Märtz des 1803 Jahrs.

[Svenja]

Hi

I'd like to try to help you to find this "Todtenregister Folio 22".
The problem is that we dont know at which place it was registered.

The Todtenschein says
that he was born in Eupen in the Limburg area
that he has died in Möskirchen in 1799
that this was written in Gaja in Mähren in 1803

I found out hat Eupen belongs to Belgien.
I can't find a Möskirchen, but a Mooskirchen in the Steiermark, Austria.
Gaja could be Gaya now known as Kyjov, Okres (District) Hodonin.

The churchbooks of Mooskirchen, Dekanat Voitsberg are in the
Diözesanarchiv in Graz, Steiermark. http://www.katholische-kirche-steiermark.at/upload/file/default/Matrikenkatalog_2013.pdf

They are digitised but the website doesn't work without problems.
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/search?parish=Mooskirchen&yearfrom=&yearto=&submitButton=Abschicken

The churchbooks of Kyjov are at the Brünn Archives - online at actapublica 
http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/?akce=hledat&ac_me=Kyjov%3AKyjov+%28Gaya%29+%2F+Hodon%C3%ADn&submit=Hledat&hl_all2=2071&hl_signatura=

Edit:
There was a Mösskirch in Baden and there is a Messkirch near Sigmaringen.
There isn't a death entry in Gaya/Kyjov between 1799 and 1803.

Regards
Svenja

[carinthiangirl]

the document was signed in Gaja, but states not that the person is buried there. this must have been in Möskirchen were he died at field or nearby.....or possible at his home-place Eupen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupen
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupen

i guess it is to search in Germany, when he was buried where he died and it was meant Meßkirch. it is close to Stockach and Biberach which is stated in this link for a fight of Rhine-army just close at time (1801): http://books.google.at/books?id=H3VZAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA312&lpg=PA312&dq=M%C3%B6skirchen+Rheinarmee&source=bl&ots=1YO3B0Ct16&sig=q9JgjmCQi5q0UBOWm1hXeIF3QTA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=F2rxUo7ZMKWBywPmsIGoAQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=M%C3%B6skirchen%20Rheinarmee&f=false
also Riedlingen nearby is stated - über den Feldzug 1799/ about the Campaign 1799! https://maps.google.at/maps?q=riedlingen&ie=UTF-8&ei=I2vxUqThDua8ygOc24LYDg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ

Meßkirch is between Stockach and Biberach an der Rieß:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me%C3%9Fkirch
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me%C3%9Fkirch
https://maps.google.at/maps?q=me%C3%9Fkirch&ie=UTF-8&ei=S2rxUofkPOu8ygOkrYDwBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ

at other places for old times Möskirchen is stated to be at the Danube-valley, so this fits for Meßkirch when you look on map for Donau-course - Tuttlingen (on map on the left near where Danube rises) is just little bit west of Meßkirch: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Verlaufskarte_Donau_%28de%29.png
Meßkirch close east of Tuttlingen: https://maps.google.at/maps?q=tuttlingen&ie=UTF-8&ei=IG7xUr3vL-jjywP40YD4Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ

History of the Carinthian line of the Earls Rosini-Rosenberg (Austria):
"1800 Franz Seraph[ikus] kommandirt bey der Retraite der Österreich. Rheinarmee einen Theil der Ariergarde, degagirt die Hauptarmee bey Möskirchen durch eine geschickte, ihm nicht anbefohlene, Bewegung nach Krumbach, rettet bey Trachtelfingen nahe von Nördlingen die Artillerie Reserve der Kaiserlichen Armee durch eine geschickte, ihm nicht anbefohlene Bewegung/1800 Franz Seraph [ikus] commanded at the retreat of Austrian Rhine-Army, a part of the Aryan Guard; the main army degagiert by Möskirchen by a skillful, not him commanded move to Krumbach, rescues in Trachtelfingen near Nördlingen of the artillery reserve of the Imperial army commanded him not by a skillful movement." (sorry when not all correct - not easy to translate the old expression):
http://orsini-rosenberg.at/hist-hor-07.htm

[carinthiangirl]

the certainty .
Zu Möskirchen [Messkirch]
http://www.zvab.com/F%C3%BCrstenthum-F%C3%BCrstenberg-Wappentafel-Reichs-F%C3%BCrsten-Staats-Beschreibung-Wappentafel/208487527/buch
http://www.abebooks.de/F%C3%BCrstenthum-F%C3%BCrstenberg-gestoch-Wappentafel-Separatum-Cap/9027115903/bd

this was area of Vorder-Österreich-Autriche antérieure- Further Austria:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Autriche_ant%C3%A9rieure.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorder%C3%B6sterreich
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorder%C3%B6sterreich

Latour's Austro-Hungarian Chevaux legers:
http://books.google.at/books?id=zSe2spOcwBAC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=Latour%27s+Austro-Hungarian+Chevaux+legers&source=bl&ots=hSBDt7LXS4&sig=o5CpcT6_-D9esQrBpnbMnKkrnqA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=pXXxUrTVF8KJyAOE94DIAQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Latour%27s%20Austro-Hungarian%20Chevaux%20legers&f=false

https://www.google.at/#q=Latour%27s+Austro-Hungarian+Chevaux+legers+

[richredwood]

Dear Svenja and Carinthian Girl,

Thanks immensely for your replies. Locations have been a bit of a stumbling block for me but your answers are helping to clear away the fog of war.

First off, I see now that the image of the todtenschein (which I found in the Eupen archives) is available here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-32296-5042-9?cc=2138505&wc=M94F-M8F:1598576826 ... in case you're interested.

(1) Gaja /Gaya - based on previous research, I'm very certain that this is Kyjov. The regiment had its headquarters there, including in 1803. Based on the info available, it seems to me highly likely that Gaja is only the location where the administrative document was drawn up and not the burial location. I can't yet find a reason as to why the todtenschein was drawn up in 1803 (as opposed to any other time).

(2) Eupen - I've done lots of research in the Eupen archives. Branches of my family were in Eupen from at least 1750 till 1900. Parish records definitely show no burial for him in Eupen. A possible but uncertain baptism is shown - hence in part why I'm trying to trace his death entry.

(3) Möskirchen - I confess I got as far as Mooskirch in Steiermark (though found no clear supporting evidence) but didn't identify the Messkirch in Baden. The weight of evidence presented for Messkirch looks pretty solid though.

I guess I'll need to try and contact the local church / archives and see where I can go with that.

This being said, and given the fact that my German is not as good as I'd like it to be, I'd still have a few question marks:

(A) The Todtenschein states "von Eupen aus Limbourgisch gebuertig". What does this actually mean? Was he definitely born in Eupen? Or could the German mean only that he lived in Eupen but was born in the Limburg region?

(B) "auf den gewöhnliche Ort christlichen Gebrauch nach beerdiget worden seije". What does this actually mean? Does it necessarily imply that he was taken to the local (Catholic) church to be buried? Or could there be some other interpretation?

(C) I had also been wondering whether the Todtenregister could possibly refer to some military death register rather than a church kirchenbuch.

R

[carinthiangirl]

"von Eupen aus Limbourgisch gebuertig"
little bit more old german word-by-word: from Eupen in limburgian born".
in modern words means he was born in Eupen, (Duchy)Limburg.

"auf den gewöhnliche Ort christlichen Gebrauch nach beerdigt worden sein"
"in the common place was buried after Christian use."

and for me is clear that Meßkirch is meant.
do you have a scan of this document.
it would maybe show more info to find out WHERE he is buried (he died about "Nervous fever").
think really fro Meßkirch-area. for last i would not guess for Bohemia.
how you said - there only this person signed the statement about his death.
i have no idea where all the military-info for that time so far back would be hold.
normally the war-archive Vienna has given the most documents to the following states.
i do not know much about just this areas like Belgium and so on. how that was handled.
have you ever looked at his birth-entry in Eupen if there is a note about his death with info?
in Austria this was often usual, maybe also there?
ok you wrote this i just see:"A possible but uncertain baptism is shown - hence in part why I'm trying to trace his death entry."

Eupen -> Habsburgs and Germans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupen#Habsburgs_and_Germans
Duchy of Limburg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Limburg

most links i have are in german, so to use translator.
http://familia-austria.net/forschung/index.php?title=Milit%C3%A4r
http://familia-austria.net/forschung/index.php?title=MILIT%C3%84RUNTERLAGEN
http://familia-austria.net/forschung/index.php?title=MILIT%C3%84R_-_SCHEMATISMEN

A Guide for Locating Austro-Hungarian Military
http://ahmilitary.blogspot.co.at/
Austria Military Records - Introduction
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Austria_Military_Records?cid=fb_grc_Austria

so for best ask at War-Archive Vienna which possibilites you would have to find info for this person for the time so far back. maybe they can give you a tipp.
http://www.austria.gv.at/site/5003/default.aspx

here a list for regiments that time:
Liste der Kavallerieregimenter der kaiserlich-habsburgischen Armee der Frühen Neuzeit
Stammliste 1798 und Verbleib 1806
List of cavalry regiments of the Imperial Habsburg army of Early Modern
root list 1798 and whereabouts in 1806
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Kavallerieregimenter_der_kaiserlich-habsburgischen_Armee_der_Fr%C3%BChen_Neuzeit#Stammliste_1798_und_Verbleib_1806

it will have been this one i think ->  Dragoner:
"Dragonerregiment Nr. 11 von 1725/1 - 1798 La Tour > 1802 Chevauxlegers-Regiment Nr. 4 > 1806 Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 14"
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Kavallerieregimenter_der_kaiserlich-habsburgischen_Armee_der_Fr%C3%BChen_Neuzeit#Dragoner

[carinthiangirl]

no idea if you can find him in normal churchbooks in Meßkirch area, but here some links.

roman.cath. diocesan archives in Germany:
http://www.katholische-archive.de/Di%C3%B6zesanarchive/tabid/56/Default.aspx
think it must be then Freiburg Archive:
http://www.katholische-archive.de/Di%C3%B6zesanarchive/Freiburg/tabid/78/Default.aspx

"Evangelisch and Katholisch church" in Meßkirch directly:
http://www.kirche-messkirch.de/index.php?article_id=32


http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Evangelische_Kirche_in_Deutschland
think it must be Archive of Evangelische Landeskirche in Württemberg
-> http://www.elk-wue.de/arbeitsfelder/kultur/landeskirchliches-archiv/
Finding your roots in Württemberg
http://www.elk-wue.de/fileadmin/mediapool/elkwue/dokumente/Merkblatt_Familienforschung_LKArchiv_english.pdf

Evang.Luth. General Diocesan Archive Berlin: http://www.ezab.de/
Association Evang.Luth. Diocesan Archives Germany: http://www.ekd.de/archive/index.htm