1841, 51 & 61 Census - SOUTHGATE - Lawford?

[verona]

Hello

Following a superb answer from Bryant to an earlier posting we are trying our luck again with this family.

Bryant found the following on the 1871,

at Wignall Street, Lawford, Essex
John SOUTHGATE  head  66  ag lab  Langham, Essex
Hannah   "          wife    65              Ardleigh, Essex
Elizabeth NEVILLE boarder (unm) 71? (seventy something)  Ardleigh, Essex

Can anyone find them on any earlier census please?  An age of 71 fits in with an IGI entry for Elizabeth of 1800.

Many thanks

verona

[BernieBarnes]

Found living Ardleigh 1861 on ref RG9/1096/3/25/1 (Next to Vicarage?)

John Southgate,Head,Mar,56, Farm Bailiff, b Langham
Hannah Southgate,wife, Mar, 55, b Ardleigh
Henry Southgate, son,Unm, 17, carpenter, b Lawford
Hannah Southgate, dau, unm, 15 b Lawford
Fanny Southgate, dau, unm, 11, scholar, b Lawford

There is another John Southgate age 55 living Langham but has a wife Sarah.

[alley]

Hi verona

here they are 1851 lawford ref HO107/1780/349/23
#
causewayend farm

john southgate 47 farm bailiff 112 acres 5 labourers b lawford
hannah wife 46 b ardleigh
sarah 18 b lawford
john 13 b same
james 11 b same
henry 7 b same
hannah 4 b same
fanny 9 months b same

regards

alan

[alley]

Hi verona

here they are in 1861 ardleigh ref RG9/1096/25/1

john southgate 56 farm bailiff b langham
hannah 55 b ardleigh
henry 17 b lawford
hannah 15 b same
fanny 11 b same

regards

alan

[verona]

Hello to both of you

Thanks for this information.  It has raised a problem in that we know that the John and Hannah Southgate we are looking for had a son, John, in Kirby in 1824.  The 1851 you have supplied has a son John born 1838 - not very likely to have two sons called John.  Perhaps we are chasing the wrong John and Hannah!

Thanks

verona

[alley]

Hi verona

see what you think 1841 lawford

john southgate 30 ag lab
hannah 30
sarah 9
elizabeth 6
john 4
james 1

and interestingly next door

samuel southgate 71 (neville connection ?)
james neville 65
mary day 55
all born in county

regards

alan

[verona]

Hello Alan

Yes I agree that the Neville connection is a good one, but as I said before the problem lies with John junior being the wrong age.  We know he was baptised in Kirby in to parents John and Hannah - father described as "labourer of Kirby" so it's difficult to see how he could be born in 1824 and again in 1838 in Lawford.  The later census dates we have for him fit in to the 1824 birth.  I think we must conclude that the Southgate/Neville line is a red herring.  A shame as it seemed to open up a whole new area for speculation.

Many thanks

Chris