Winifred Toinette ? a real Lancashire mystery

[Paul Morrell]

Have you tried to see if T or W Moran had a telephone number in Derby in the 1940s?

You might at least get an address that way  and that might lead to a business.

http://www.derby.gov.uk/leisure-and-culture/libraries/derby-libraries/local-studies-library/

I think they have old telephone directories

I have a copy of a local newspaper report from 1947, when Winifred stood as an independent candidate in a local by-election. It records that she was from Lancashire and was until recently in business with premesis on Monk Street (Derby) and a stall on Morledge (which was the old town centre "open" market)

Having grown up myself in similar streets and not too far away from Monk Street and Drewry Lane (the Moran`s address in 1945 -1946) streets of late victorian terraces. The businesses I recall are bakers and butchers (I think we can rule a trade out) Barbers or hairdressers (not suitable for a stall on the Morledge) a grocers  (again unlikely on a stall in the Morledge)  my guess is a newsagents / tobacconists. Maybe not affected too much by rationing in the mid to late `40`s. That would suit a backstreet shop and a market stall ?

I will try an appeal in the local Derby Telegraph Bygones. In these kinds of streets you knew all your neighbours and definitely all the local shop keepers. I still remember ours after more than 40 years . There are probably locally a few ex Monk Street locals in their 70`s or 80`s who may remember Winifred` shop ?

My guess is, Winifred was a newsagent, a newsagents daughter, from Manchester. An area of Manchester with a sizeable Jewish community.

[Paul Morrell]

Paul I guess you have this.

http://www.grahamstevenson.me.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1325:coleman-doug&catid=3:c&Itemid=99

 Yes    thank you very much. I contacted Graham early on in my research to see if he knew what had become of Tommy. He was very helpful, but didn`t know  what had happened to Tommy. Very interesting article

[jaywit]

You may strike lucky with the Telegraph. Do Radio Derby ever do sort of a bygone phone in?

[Paul Morrell]

You may strike lucky with the Telegraph. Do Radio Derby ever do sort of a bygone phone in?

That`s a good idea thank you. I`ll ask my mum, I think she still listens to Radio Derby occasionally 

[heywood]

Hi

There is a, Winifred Antoinette Sheldon b 1909 Reading Berkshire I can not give full details due to copyright issues.

Margp

Hi Marg,
I was just looking at jaywit's post on the other thread re Winifred Antoinettes. I found This Winifred again. She did marry and her death is recorded with both names - Sheldon and Charman.
Heywood

[MargP]

Hi

There is a, Winifred Antoinette Sheldon b 1909 Reading Berkshire I can not give full details due to copyright issues.

Margp

Hi Marg,
I was just looking at jaywit's post on the other thread re Winifred Antoinettes. I found This Winifred again. She did marry and her death is recorded with both names - Sheldon and Charman.
Heywood

Thanks Heywood, I wonder why that was

[heywood]

Hi

There is a, Winifred Antoinette Sheldon b 1909 Reading Berkshire I can not give full details due to copyright issues.

Margp

Hi Marg,
I was just looking at jaywit's post on the other thread re Winifred Antoinettes. I found This Winifred again. She did marry and her death is recorded with both names - Sheldon and Charman.
Heywood

Thanks Heywood, I wonder why that was

Perhaps separated? She didn't marry until 1945 though which, I would imagine, excludes her from this.

[Jomot]

I keep coming back to Winnie A Groenert born about 1905 who, aged 6, is living at the Albion Hotel, Manchester.   

The Albion Hotel was about a mile or so from Cheetham Hill Road, the main Jewish area in Manchester. Even closer still to Mosley Street 

Her father Francis G Groenert was the hotel manager and was a naturalised German but apparently died in 1929 in the Crumpsall Institution, Manchester - the former workhouse which was also a mental institution. His wife died in 1915.

Unfortunately this Winnie A appears to marry a Frederick Mitchell in Scarborough in 1922 and die in Mar 1979 in Honiton, Devon so I cant see it being her - unless their paths crossed in childhood and Winifred Toinette 'borrowed' her first two names    

ADDED: Her birth name was Frances W A Groenert, but from the census she was known as Winnie

[Paul Morrell]

Hi Jomot, that is really is very interesting thank you, the profile could be spot on. German father, Cheetham Hill and I could understand someone wanting to hide the surname Groenert. Sharp and Moran would mix much more easily with her chosen crowd. Whoever Winifred Toinette was, she certainly didn`t want to be found. I think she could easily have borrowed the Toinette / Antoinette. too. There could well have been an inherited mental instability    In all that I have learned so far and reading between the lines, I think Winifred was highly articulate and intelligent, very passionate about politics and easily prone to hysteria. I did think hers was a family business background and I guess with her father being a hotel manager, she would possibly be ambitious and a cut above. I guess she could have married at 17. The only bit, as yet I can`t figure is the Honiton connection ? I really do like this, thank you very much indeed. Food for thought. Splendid work 

Added :  http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/gone/albion.html

Looking at the map / plan, there were to tailors and a hatter as neighbours. Jewish ?