(*Completed with thanks*)Scotland's People .. Cannot Find Records .. Why?

[New Zealander]

Can anyone assist please?

I cannot find either a birth record for John Bryce born on 12.02.1855 or a death record for his father Robert Bryce died between 1854 and 1855 (The 1854 date is obtained by subtracting 9 months from John Bryce's date of birth which means Robert Bryce must have still been alive around April or May of 1854 .. time of conception )

John Bryce was born on 12.02.1855,  this record from a Family Bible.  His father was Robert Bryce and his mother Isabella MacKay.  These two married in the Parish of Barony, Glasgow on 17.12.1853.  It was a 2nd marriage for both.  The previous partners of Robert and Isabella were deceased. 

By the time of the 1861 Census,  Isabella is recorded as a widow (for 2nd time) with son John 7 years residing at St Andrews Square, Glasgow.

Why and where is the death record for Robert Bryce and the birth record for his son John Bryce?

Any help or assistance would be much appreciated.

Thank you

Alex G

[andycand]

Hi

If Johns age is correct in the 1861 census then his birth would be 12th feb 1854 which is prior to Statutory Registration.

It looks like Robert and Isabella had 2 other children (links below) which would suggest that Robert didn't die until at least 1857

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQQS-FJC

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQQ3-Y4W

Andy

[New Zealander]

Andy

Thank you for your input.  There is no other information in the Bryce family records including the Family Bible that suggest Robert and Isabella had other children in addition to John Bryce born 12.02.1855.  This includes burial and Lair information from the Mitchell Library.

The 1861 Census records only Isabella with son John Bryce aged 7 years.  Census records sometimes have been taken liberally with dates and in this case might also include the precise date when Statutory Registration actually took effect in 1855.  John Bryce might actually be in his 7th year i.e. 6 years and 9 months of age rather then actually being 7 years of age.

I have seen those records on Family Search and they are out of kilter with all known information about the family.  I believe they are another Robert and Isabella MacKay. 

While it is a very small difference .. there is the different spelling of MacKay or McKay as well on Family Search.

A death record for Robert Bryce would fix that.

Again many thanks for your input

Alex G

[andycand]

Hi Alex

The 2 apparent siblings on Familysearch are sourced from the Statutory Registration of births so it would be worth looking at the Registrations on Scotlandspeople as the information on them may be helpful.  I agree that ages on censuses can sometimes be iffy but as there doesn't appear to be a birth on SP or on Familysearch (who have indexed all Scottish births and marriages 1855 to 1875 from the Statutory Registers) then 1854 does look a possibility.

Variations on spellings are not unusual even sometimes in the same document so I wouldn't read anything into it.

Andy

[loobylooayr]

Hi Alex,
What age approx would Robert have been around the time you beleive he died?
I would agree with Andy, spellings of names can vary greatly so I wouldn't rule the McKay births out.
Looby

[loobylooayr]

Hi again,
A quick basic search on Scotlands People -
Death in Calton district Glasgow of a Jane Bryce mother's maiden name McKay aged 0  in 1856
Death in Calton district of Glasgow of an Agnes Bryce mther's maiden name McKay aged 0 1858
These could be the two children found by Andy and if they were siblings of John Bryce then due to their early deaths it is possible they were never recorded in the Family Bible - it would greatly depend on who wrote details in Bible and when they were recorded.
St Andrews Square the address where John and his mother Isabella are living at time of 1861 Census is in Calton District.
Like Andy I wonder if John was born pre-1855.
Looby

[Ruskie]

Have you checked for spelling variations of the surname Bryce? Brice perhaps? And perhaps broaden the search to include other areas?

To check if there was another family with the same names (as you suspect there is), have you checked the various censuses?

Just a couple of ideas which you may or may not already have tried ...

[Gadget]

Hi

Just to re-enforce Andy's and Looby's finds - Jane Bryce was born* at 38 St Andrews Square, the same address that Isabella and John were living at in 1861. Robert Bryce, father and  informant,  is recorded as a Carter.

Gadget


* 9 July 1856

[Gadget]

Also, Agnes - July 11 1858 at 38 St Andrews Square. Robert is again recorded as a Carter and no mention of him being deceased. Isabella was the informant on this record.


Gadget