The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again

[deb usa]

In 1851 Percy Passage was enumerated in district 4. There were 17 districts for Middlesex, St Pancras, Tottenham Court. I checked all the enumerators notes to see if there was "another side" to Percy Passage  ...Nothing.

Stephen Street where Ann Fox lived was district 2 as was 23-28 Rathbone Place and 38-50 UPPER Rathbone Place

[..claire..]

Hi

This is such a large thread, not sure if this has been seen. Some info here about Charlotte Street and the surrounding area

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=744&page=1&sort=1

claire

[Ruskie]

The search for the death of MARY WARD:

This is the email I sent to the GRO after the purchase of one incorrect certificate and the refund of money after ordering two others where information provided did not match so certificates were not issued:

GQ Unable to locate correct certificate

I'm sure this is slightly different from most of the requests you receive, but I would be very grateful if you could help in my quest.

I am attempting to find a death certificate. I have placed two orders with specific search terms which failed to locate the correct death certifcate although your staff searched both years either side of the death year of 1847. One incorrect certificate has also been purchased. The Westminster Archives holdings have also been checked but no death certificate located.I know her date of burial, her address in the year prior to death, and her husband’s name.

A bit of background information -:
I am not sure if you are aware of this feature which was published online by Westminster Archives during 2010, "The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson, 1846":
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/

This diary captured the imagination of the members of an online forum called RootsChat, and led to a huge and continuing discussion (initiated by myself). Part 1 (of 9 plus a "Revisited") commences here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457330.0.html

We have traced the births, marriages and deaths of many of the characters in the diary. Now we are trying to locate the death of the author's mother, who was very ill throughout 1846 and died the following year in 1847. We have her burial:
29 Oct 1847 
St Anne, Soho 
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50

To give some idea of likely places of death, her husband died 27 March 1851, Strand, sub-district of St Anne Westminster, and his address was Richmond Buildings (I have this certificate). Her mother died 20th Nov 1851 in the Parish of St Pancras
[Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary] (I have not yet purchased this certificate)

As Mary was so ill I wondered if she may also have been admitted to the infirmary prior to death, and perhaps the informant may have been a member of staff who did not know her husband's name, hence this not being picked up on the GRO search. Her address specified as Richmond Buildings also failed to locate her death which may be due to her being in the infirmary.

Unfortunately there was nowhere on the online application form to give further information about the deceased which may have helped in your search for her death, in particular her burial on 29th October 1847 at St Anne, Soho. Presumably her death would only have occurred a day or two prior to this.

Is there any way that you would be able to do a broader search in a smaller time frame? Though unlikely, there is also the chance that she may have died elsewhere slightly outside the area.Free BMD has the following deaths registered in the December quarter of 1847, in London and Middlesex: 


Deaths Dec 1847

Ward Mary
Marylebone
1 152

Ward Mary
St Pancras
1 328

Ward Mary
Holborn
2 173

Ward Mary
St James
1 113
[this was purchased but is incorrect as this individual died 8 Dec]

So basically I am looking to find a death a day or two prior to the 29th of OCtober 1847. Is there any way to investigate the above deaths to see if any of them occurred around this time. Cause of death may be as a result of a tumor, and age is 50, unless unknown by the informant. Are there any other possible deaths in the right area and time frame which are not listed on Freebmd?

I’m not sure how much flexibility there is in the GRO regarding locating and supplying certificates but I wonder if you might allow a little flexibility in this case. I would be more than happy to pay for the certificate if the correct one can be found.

Many thanks for reading this long email and I look forward to hearing from you with some possible suggestions to this dilemma.

Many thanks.

[Ruskie]

This was the response I received from them:

Thank you for your enquiry.

If you are unsure which of the possible entries found in the indexes refer to the person you are looking for, you may wish to place a research order and we will carry out a three year search of the General Register Office Indexes for the entry you are seeking.

If the name appears frequently in the indexes you can  request we search a year or specific quarter of a year and we will check up to 6 possible entries in the name quoted.  You will need to make your application by phone or post however.

Additional information may be included on these orders which will help us identify an entry. You say you have a record of her being buried on 29 October 1847 which may indicate she died shortly prior to this.

We are only able to undertake searches where at the very least the year and place of the event together with the full name and surname of the person is provided.

If the search is unsuccessful we will contact you to advise no trace of an entry can be found in the details supplied and a full refund is issued .

Standard Service charge £9.25 -  15 working days
Priority Service charge £23.40 - Despatched the following working day.

For further information please refer to our website: www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

Regards



Re reading it, not very helpful at all. Looks like a standard reply with the addition of the burial information I already gave them plus adding the fact that she probably died shortly prior to burial. 

Is there anyone who feels up to going over all this again? Or starting from scratch? Which death may be our Mary was discussed in depth starting around pages 7ish in our previous thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=622788.54. Have any new records come to light in the past 18 months?

Or, should we give up on Mary and move onto something which we haven't covered before?

[deb usa]

Hi Ruskie,

So we have these 4 deaths in Dec q 1847;
Ward Mary
Marylebone
1 152

Ward Mary
St Pancras
1 328 [wrong one – spinster who died of influenza]

Ward Mary
Holborn
2 173

Ward Mary
St James
1 113 [wrong one – Mongibello ordered this and this Mary died in the Poland Street workhouse on 8 December; weeks after "our" Mary was buried.]

You ordered two others and were refunded your money as they were not the correct Mary ... I'm assuming The Marylebone and Holborn ones.

I have checked Dec 1847 deaths using just "Mary" and then "Ward" just in case her name was misspelled ... I can't see anything that fits.

I'm going to reread the Mary parts .... Maybe we've missed something.

deb

[Ruskie]

Hi Deb. It is probably worth re reading just in case you spot something.

I decided to post the email I sent to the GRO as well as their response as I don't think I posted it before. 

I think we were fairly thorough in the search but I can't help but be a bit sceptical that the GRO searched thoroughly. After all we only have their word for it.

I think we even searched for deaths registered for Mary Bry*son (just in case).

[deb usa]

So we know for sure that the St James and the St Pancras ones are not our Mary but we only have the GRO telling us that the other two are incorrect.

Maybe she was in the infirmary and someone there registered her death and didn't state that she was wife of Matthew Ward. There's a possibility that one of the two remaining death reg. state that a Mary Ward died of a tumour/breast cancer in Oct .

I am at a loss ...but will keep reading.

[deb usa]

I'm wondering if ordering Nathaniel White's death (1862) would reveal anything? If NB found out about his real dad, maybe he registered the death. In the previous thread Carole (Siamese girl) found a burial of a Nathaniel White in the workhouse.

"Nathaniel White died in the St Marylebone workhouse on 4 December 1862aged 77 "

Bizarre that Nathaniel Bryceson/White was born in the same workhouse that his (possible) father died in!

[Ruskie]

Hi Deb. I just had a fiddle with ordering a d/c from the GRO.

I omitted the age at death in years
Is GRO ref no known? I said 'no'
Year in which the event was registered? I said 1847.
[even if her death was registered late or the following year for some reason surely the GRO searches should have picked it up?]

The form says: If you aren't supplying a GRO reference and don't know the exact date of event you can enter a year to be searched - we will search the specified year and one either side.

If you don't know the required information and cannot complete the required criteria you can phone or write. 

Next page the following needs to be completed:

Year death was registered [* are required fields]
surname *
forenames*
date of death* (if you don't know exact date enter 01/01/1847 and we will search the specified year and one either side)
age at death
place of death or last known address*
marital status

I just filled in her name, and for place of death/last known address, I wrote unknown, and I was allowed through the system to the next page. I didn't go as far as paying but I wonder if it will accept "unknown"? 


I also checked through my old emails for refunds on death certificates I have ordered:
Mary Ward died 1 Jan 1847 in Richmond Buildings
Mary Ward died 1 Jan 1847 in Middlesex

Receipt for Mary Ward 1847 St Pancras vol 1 page 328 [wrong one]

The spiel with the refund emails:

We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.

We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1846-1848). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.


I don't believe that I gave the GRO reference numbers on the two orders which I received refunds for, but the search should have covered all of the deaths for all Mary Wards from 1846 to 1848 in Middlesex. 

Maybe giving an address is where I went wrong?