Rebecca Judith Larcher

[jbluj]

Thanks for the welcome. We’ve been hunting ancestors since the 1980s and still have lots of gaps in the numerous families, but regarding the origin of Rebecca Judith Larcher may I make the following observations....

There are two key issues 1) her given name 2) her birth date

I’ve found only 3 instances where the name Judith is written....the baptism records of her children: Elizabeth 1808, Harriet 1811, Andrew 1813.  The other children just have the mother’s name as Rebecca.  What’s more, on two instances where she signed her name, she writes Rebeker Larcher.  NOTE : She COULD sign her name and no Judith.
Interestingly, her upward sloping signature might suggest she was left handed?

So I believe the Judith second name is a red herring regarding official records.



Rebecca Larcher (wife of Andrew) was recorded at her death (1838) as Ann Rebecca Larcher ...by her husband. Suggesting that WAS her given name, at least as far as HE was aware. 

It’s quite plausible that with daughter and mother both Ann Rebecca some name modification was necessary to avoid family confusion. The use of Judith might have been personal choice ....or was it perhaps honouring some family member..... that might be a further clue?


There has been a lot of discussion about her maiden name....Martly, Hartley or Harvey.   On the 1829 Thomas Mark Larcher birth record, the words Mark and Middlesex show how the M is formed by that scribe. It is clearly different from the letter that starts Rebecca’s maiden name. That’s an H!


The suggestion it could be Harvey is an interesting one. There is an Ann Rebecca born to John and Hannah Harvey in Bethnal Green in 1786 which, on face value, ticks her given name, father’s Christian name and is close to the birth date derived from the death certificate. It however poses 2 concerns....

1. Her first child Ann Rebecca was born 28/11/1801 when Ann Rebecca Snr would have been 15yr old!  Not impossible of course and maybe a reason there isn’t a marriage to be found?
2. Unlike her husband and many poor weavers at that time, Rebecca could sign her name. Does this suggest a different community for her family origins?

For what it’s worth,  I think there is an earlier Ann Rebecca Hartley out there ....somewhere.

[Kiwi007]

Hi,
I have recently started looking at this family for my cousin who is a descendant via Thomas WATLEY.

I have just located what looks very much like John HARTLEY's death ( record found on Findmypast & Ancestry.com)
First name(s)   John
Last name   Hartley
Age   67
Birth year   1744
Burial year   1811
Burial date   28 Jun 1811
Place   Bethnal Green, Gibraltar Row Burial Ground
Denomination   Protestant Dissenters
Original record states he was of the parish of Christchurch, Spitalfields and aged 67 years
,,,,
There was also a John HARTLEY aged 6 weeks buried at the same place on 7 Nov 1813
a Susannah HARTLEY aged 34 buried in the same place, of the parish of St Matthew BG, on 03 April 1803 ( she might be the daughter of Edmund & Susannah)
Then going to Spitalfields:
First name(s)   Charles
Last name   Hartley
Baptism date   01 Jan 1769
Address   Red Lion Street
Father's first name(s)   John
Father's occupation   Weaver
Mother's first name(s)   Susanna
Parish   Christ Church, Spitalfields
.....

And this one:
Name:    Mary Hartley
Gender:    Female
Record Type:    Baptism
Baptism Date:    10 Feb 1771
Baptism Place:    Christ Church, Spitalfields, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England
Father:    John Hartley
Mother:    Susanna Hartley
John is a weaver of Red Lion St ( see ancestry.com)
There is this one.....
Name:    Ruth Hartley
Gender:    Female
Record Type:    Baptism
Baptism Date:    23 Jan 1780
Baptism Place:    St Mary, Whitechapel, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England
Father:    Jno Hartley
Mother:    Susannah Hartley
of Ducking Pond Lane
.................
after hours of searching, I found this marriage...I wonder?? They were both of Surrey ( see ancestry.com)..it is the only marriage with a Susannah

First name(s)   John
Last name   Hartley
Marriage year   1760
Marriage date   30 Jan 1760
Marriage place   Newington St Mary
Spouse's first name(s)   Susanna
Spouse's last name   Corke
,,,,,

a poss death:
Name:    Susanna Hartley
Birth Date:    abt 1736
Event Type:    Burial
Death Age:    53
Burial Date:    14 Oct 1789
of Ratcliffe Highway
Source   
Parish Register Transcripts
County   Surrey

Its late here now, so will get back to this tomorrow, all going well!

[Kiwi007]

OK...just a bit more and then its to bed!!

First name(s)   Susannah
Last name   Heartley
Birth year   1764
Birth date   16 Sep 1764
Baptism year   1764
Baptism date   21 Oct 1764
Father's first name(s)   John
Mother's first name(s)   Susannah
Parish   St John the Evangelist, Smith Square
...............

First name(s)   Mary
Last name   Hurdley
Birth year   1771
Baptism year   1771
Baptism date   10 Feb 1771
Address   Red Lion Street
Father's first name(s)   John
Father's occupation   Weaver
Mother's first name(s)   Susanna
Parish   Christ Church, Spitalfields
................
Name:    Elizabeth Hartley
[Elizabeth Heartley]
Gender:    Female
Event Type:    Baptism
Father:    John Heartley
Mother:    Susanna
Baptism Date:    7 Jun 1773
Baptism Place:    City Road, London, England
Denomination:    Independent
Weaver of Christ Church Spitalfields

a child of Mr HEARTLEY's of Spitalfields:
Burial date   24 Apr 1766
Place   -
Denomination   Dissenters

Name:    Israel Heartley
Gender:    Male
Event Type:    Baptism
Father:    John Heartley
Mother:    Susannah
Baptism Date:    1 Jun 1777
Baptism Place:    City Road, London, England
Denomination:    Independent
as above..weaver, etc

But he died young:
First name(s)   Israel
Last name   Hartley
Gender   Male
Burial date   26 Jan 1784
Burial place   Spitalfields, Middlesex, England

I have hunted everywhere for Rebecca, under all sorts of spellings. Am crossed eyed now! Not sure why she isn't coming up. I wonder if John remarried or something. Will try some more thoughts tomorrow as I have turned into a pumpkin ( it is now 1.00am!)

[jbluj]

Wow ...you are a Speedy Gonzales.  . Well done!

I had only just started the Hartley search this afternoon but had discovered Ruth, Israel and Susannah. We are on the same track!  You just saved me some hard work. Thanks 😆

I had also seen the death of young Israel in 1784 and had been temporarily distracted from further sibling searching, by the notion that maybe, just maybe...the death of a child might have in some way distracted them from Christening Ann Rebecca?, as it WAS 1784, the very year that Andrew gave as her birth, in her death certificate???

The child of Mr Heartley buried in 1766 is in all probability a child of John / Susannah as there would seem to be a gap in their children’s baptisms in 1766.

John remarrying would have no bearing on AR. If HIS Susannah lived till 1789 and AR was born in 1784 she would be their offspring. 

Time for bed here now. Wedding anniversary tomorrow so no genealogy. Thanks once again for your hard work. 👍

BTW...I am descended from Eliza Watley d. Thomas and Harriet Watley

One final tantalising thought... there is a Judith Corke being buried in 1768 in Godstone, Surrey (admittedly some miles south of Southwark) ..... Susannah’s mother?? Ann Rebecca’s grandmother......Judith!!?!?!?

Bed.

[Kiwi007]

Hi again!
Psssst...have you done a DNA test yet? Let me know because I have my cousins results and would LOVE to do some chromosome  work on this line...if not, make sure you do the My Heritage test..it is amazing. ancestry.com is useless re DNA testing IMHO ( I did both)...I got MH to run a test on the ancestry.com results and was absolutely amazed at the difference in quality, and sheer amount of info, that was there but ancestry couldn't be bothered telling me about. Plus MH has some brilliant tools to help research. Ancestry is great for records but not for DNA ( IMHO)
My job today was to put on paper ( and later here), in chronological order, everyone we are pretty sure about....I was so tired last night I was just whacking things in!
Re Susannah...no g'tee that death in 1789 is her, or indeed the marriage is the right one...they just LOOK so promising. If both are ours, then Susannah was 7 or 8 years older than John and John was VERY young to be marrying this older woman!.
There was a victualler, William HARTLEY, married to a Rebecca, who had a daughter Rebecca 1785. I am toying with the idea she was given to John & Susannah ( if related), but I have also found a couple of Rebecca HARTLEY marriages in the early 1800's, so I'm not holding out tooo much hope.
It is very possible our Rebecca didn't get baptised as you say....I will see what other gaps appear when I get stuck back into this
The name HARTLEY is abundant in the North of England, so am thinking the origins will be found there somewhere
I'll get back later.
Congratulations and best wishes for your anniversary!

[Kiwi007]

Sitting here re reading all the posts and realised I am talking to my very own cousin......laugh my head off ...JF??...its JB here ( the clue is right there in my user name) When you mentioned wedding anniversary, I thought...oooh someone else mentioned that recently.....then I received your email just now, and REALLY thought it was you:)!!
Too funny.
So I'll take the opportunity to suggest ANYONE who has a DNA test, really should load it up to GEDMATCH ( Genesis)...it will give you matches from other DNA testing companies, and a whole lot more, it is free ( or a small fee for advanced stuff) and has some fun stuff too.
https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php

[philipsearching]

Re Susannah...no g'tee that death in 1789 is her, or indeed the marriage is the right one...they just LOOK so promising. If both are ours, then Susannah was 7 or 8 years older than John and John was VERY young to be marrying this older woman!.

That is, if we assume his age at death was given correctly.  Ages on census returns and death/burial records were often inaccurate in the 19th century.  Imagine a grieving son or daughter being asked: "How old was your father?" - how many would know the right answer! For the labouring classes (with varying levels of literacy and numeracy) there was no advantage to being seen as old.  John might have been 77 - we just don't know yet.

Philip

ps - I discounted Rebecca the victualler's daughter (but I can't recall why - I will have to rummage through my notes) and a Rebecca baptised 1785 in Bishop's Waltham Hampshire who seems to have died young.

[jbluj]

Sitting here re reading all the posts and realised I am talking to my very own cousin......laugh my head off ...JF??...its JB here ( the clue is right there in my user name) When you mentioned wedding anniversary, I thought...oooh someone else mentioned that recently.....then I received your email just now, and REALLY thought it was you:)!!
Too funny.
So I'll take the opportunity to suggest ANYONE who has a DNA test, really should load it up to GEDMATCH ( Genesis)...it will give you matches from other DNA testing companies, and a whole lot more, it is free ( or a small fee for advanced stuff) and has some fun stuff too.
https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php

When we’ve stopped laughing I will email you.

[Kiwi007]

 ...same