Author Topic: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium  (Read 21862 times)

Offline leen

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #63 on: Saturday 05 September 15 16:14 BST (UK) »
Hi Gaynor,
It took a while but I think that the mystery about Clara Van Vaeter or Clara De Graef is solved. Clara was the illegitimate daughter of Joanna Maria Van Vaeter. After Clara’s birth, her mother Joanna Maria married twice. First with Jacques Vlaenders and the second time with Jacobus De Groef. It’s likely that Clara used her second stepfather’s name De Groef, misspelled as De Graef, which wasn’t her legal name because she was not recognized or legitimated.

Joanna Maria Van Vaeter was a foundling. I found the references to her first marriage and her baptism in  ‘Zoeken naar personen / Search persons’ on the Belgian State archives. There is a other Van Vaeter baptism for a Joseph, found on the same day and same place. Since they give them the same family name, Joseph could be Joanna Maria her brother.

Search persons   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g20/

baptism on the Belgian State Archives of Joanna Maria and Joseph Van Vaeter   
12 March 1790  parish church Saint-Catherine, Brussels  http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g21/  (log in)
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Offline GAYNORI

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #64 on: Saturday 05 September 15 16:49 BST (UK) »
Once again Leen many thanks, you have solved the mystery which would have probably taken me days ???  :-[

I must admit I haven't done as much as I would have liked as a friend came from Suffolk yesterday so we had lunch before she goes home on Sunday. I only see her a couple of times a year. When I got home I didn't do anything (I think the wine had made my head a bit fuzzy!!) Finished weekend cleaning house so can now get on a bit more.

Is a foundling the same in English..i.e. an abandoned baby, if so how sad is that.

Kind Regards
Pam

Offline GAYNORI

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #65 on: Saturday 05 September 15 17:47 BST (UK) »
Hi Leen

Found the documents :)and I managed (using Google) to tanslate them too :) :) :)
Just trying to figure it out no!

Kind Regards
Gaynor

Offline leen

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #66 on: Sunday 06 September 15 17:41 BST (UK) »
isn’t foundling English ? I didn’t know that, I used it because it’s sorter and easier to write then abandoned child.
Yes, it’s sad, I saw in the register that there were quite a lot in that time.
And you have found the baptism entry of Joanna Maria , good. There’s not much in I’m afraid, but there’s a bit more in the marriage suplements of her first wedding. 

marriage Jacobus Vlaenders - Maria Joanna Van Vaeter  11 November 1812 Drogenbos
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2b/

marriage suplements Vlaenders-Van Vaeter   (image 166 and 167)   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2c/
image 166 
Extract from the proces verbal register concerning the registration of foundlings (enfants de la patrie) at the foundling hospital at Brussels
Register 82, folio 157v year 1790
n° 261. Jeanne Marie VanVaeter, 10 months old, found the 11th March 1790 at 7:30 pm near the canal at the door of Mr Wouvermans,  bearing a card as noticeable mark containing : Jeanne Marie was baptized in the parochial church Sainte-Catherine and that she was 10 months old the 11th March 1790.
Certified true copy. The Director of the institution mentioned above.

marriage  De Groef - Vanvaeter   25/11/1840 Ukkel   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2d/

Today the 25th of the month November 1840 at 10 o’clock in the morning, before us Nicolaus VAN BREETWATER, alderman, authorized officer of the civil registration of the commune Ukkel, province of Brabant, have appeared in public session in our townhall  : Jacobus DE GROEF, 41 years and 10 months old, day labourer, living and born in this commune on the 28th January 1799, adult son of the late Elisabeth DE GROEF, deceased at Brussels the 8th February 1812.
The future bridegroom declares in the presence of the four witnesses named hereafter, that his mother’s name is not Elisabeth DE GRAVE as listed on her deathcert but Elisabeth DE GRAEF, and he declares on oath that the place of death or last residence of his grandfather and grandmother  is unknown to him.
And Joanna Maria VANVAETER, 50 years and 8 months old, day labourer, living in Ukkel, born in Brussels 12 March 1790, widow of Jacobus VLAENDERS, deceased at Ukkel 31 December 1818, adult daughter of unknow parents.
Which comparants asked us to proceed with the celebration of the marriage planned between them and of which  the announcements  were done before the main entrance of our town hall ; the first on the 15th of this month and the second  on the 20th of the same month, both at 10 o’clock in the morning.
No impediment has been reported to us, doing justice to their request, we have, after the reading of all the above mentioned documents and of chapter six of the Civil Code  titled the Marriage, asked the future bridegroom and future bride if they want to take each other for husband and for wife, each of them in turn answered affirmatively, we declared, in the name of the law, that Jacobus DE GROEF and Joanna Maria VANVAETER  are united in marriage.
Of all of this we drawn up this cert in the presence of Jacobus VERHEVEN, 44 years old, slater, Josephus JACQUEMYNS, 30 years old, slaughterer,  Joannes Baptista DANNEELS, 50 years old, farmer and Guilielmus KINDERMANS, 33 years old, bricklayer, all living in this commune and no relatives of the married couple. After the reading, the bridegroom and the first three witnesses have signed with us, the bride and the fourth witness have declared being unable to sign because of illiteracy.

marriage supplements  (image 310, 311 and 312)   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g2e/
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Offline leen

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #67 on: Sunday 06 September 15 17:47 BST (UK) »
for the marriage of Peter Danckaert and Marie Ronse
http://www.arch.be/index.php?l=en&m=genealogist&r=genealogy-startpage
click on church registers (in red) and then
- Province West-Flanders (district Bruges, Ypres, Veurne)
   - Veurne, parochie Sint-Denijs / Sint-Niklaas / Sint-Walburga     (the three parishes of Veurne are listed in one index)
      - Parochieregisters, Index
         - Parochieregister. Alfabetische index van huwelijken
            - 1593 - 03/11/1795
               - Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (263) 
                     (which you only can see when loged in, next to the blue box with ‘Archiefbeschrijving’)
now you click  on a thumbnail image and then search through the index
column 3 gives you the parish  (parochie Sint-Niklaas, parochie Sint-Walburga or parochie Sint-Denijs), column 4 the date and column 5 the page number of the marriage register, which you can ignore because the given page numbers in the index of Veurne don’t correspond to the numbers in the registers.
When you have the references : 
click on the x in the circle (top right corner of the image screen)
on  -  Inventaris van de parochieregisters. Provincie West-Vlaanderen. Arrondissementen Brugge, Ieper, Veurne / A.
           Coenen.
          - Veurne, parochie Sint-Niklaas
             - Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
               - Parochieregisters. Huwelijksakten
                 - 18/04/1752 - 20/09/1763
                   - Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (137)
                     - on a thumbnail image and then search through the register 


just give a shout when you need more help
groetjes
Leen
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Offline GAYNORI

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #68 on: Sunday 06 September 15 18:33 BST (UK) »
Hi Leen

It seems foundling is the same thing in both countries. When I translated it, it came up as "find child a  Brussels". Looked up and there was a foundling hospital near the canal it also said there was a home for penitent courtesans!! lol so I wondered maybe these children were the products of these fallen ladies of the night. Although I think a courtesan was a high class lady kept as a mistress of a rich man! Hope our Joanna was one!!! rather than some poor girl who had been abandoned.
Thank you so much for all that info, I haven't done hardly any today as on a Sunday I have my mum for lunch so have to entertain her. Cannot discuss family history with her too much as she gets confused and mixes everybody up or talks about someone else so our conversation is on two wavelengths. I mean Margaret who was born in 1784 for example and she tells me that Margaret hated chicken soup. How do you now that!!!! I say, oh she used to spit it out when Granny gave it to her. She means her sister Margaret, never mind old age will come to us all sooner rather than later!!
I will have a good read of the info now she has gone home and digest it all properly
Once again Leen many thanks for all your hard work I really do appreciate it, in fact I don't know what I would have done without you. :-*
Kind Regards
Gaynor

Offline GAYNORI

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #69 on: Sunday 06 September 15 19:34 BST (UK) »
Hi Leen

I have found the index page & have the reference as thus;
Petrus JanBupe (?) m Ronse Maria Francisca N (Sint Niklaas ?) on 19 Aug 1760 No 441

I think the N is Sint Niklaas as most are marked with a W (Sint Walburga) but I might be wrong.

Now I am suppose to click on the x in the circle (top right hand corner of the image page) but I can't seem t see it  :-[ Is it on the actual register page or do I need to go baack one to where all the scans are? I will try again. Thanks
Gaynor

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #70 on: Sunday 06 September 15 21:23 BST (UK) »
Hello Leen
 :-[  :-[ Found it!

I have got to the pages of the 1752 register (after a lot of head scratching) Although yr instructions were easy to follow I couldn't for the life of me see the x Eventually I saw it as you said but I thought that was to clear the page oops! Anyway I am now going thru the registers wish me luck
Kind Regards
Gaynor

Offline GAYNORI

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Re: Madeleine Eugenie Emilie Stephany was a Catholic, she was born Antwerp Belgium
« Reply #71 on: Sunday 06 September 15 22:10 BST (UK) »
 Hello Leen
:) I think I have found it but I was wondering if you would mind checking it for me please.

It is on Page 1 (of 7) and it is the sixth row. It is the last sheet on row 6. Also at top it says 27 in handwritten writing. I am sure it is the correct one as it is for a Mariam (Maria?) Franciscus Ronfe (Ronse) but Peter's name is longer than what I thought it would be. It includes Baptiste (?) if I am reading it correctly. I think it may be Dutch Latin or Latin not too sure at all !!

Kind Regards
Gaynor