Adoptions

[bron63]

alice eliza baker is my 2nd great grand aunt the one you have put up and married William bottom George and eliza is alice parents no there not the parents to agnes husband William, Blimey yes she is definitely sister inlaw it is on my tree as that. George & eliza my 3rd great grand parents Agnes mother & father inlaw,  I only got cert on agnes last week another cousin sent to me.
Ok here is the information on agnes death cert

death transcription from NSW registry of bdm
rego number -  12948
Date of death - 30 june 1927
place of death  - Duntroon hospital Johnston street Annandale
name - agnes baker
occupation - unknown
sex - female
age - 65
cause of death - failure of the hearts action whilst under an anaesthetic for surgical operation for multiple abscesses of the lung
duration - inquest Sydney 11 july 1927
medical attendant - f.w.fletcher city coroner
father - firth
Occupation - boundary rider
mother maiden name - not listed
informant - A.E.Baker, son , Hammond Avenue Ashfield Registered 1 july 1927
when buried - 2 july 1927
where - church of England cemetery rookwood
undertaker - ernest Andrews
minister - p . bazeley
religion - church of England
witnesses - a.e.baker , Arthur h shying
where born - mudgee nsw
time in colony or state - nil
place of marriage - mudgee nsw
age at marriage - 19
spouse - William james baker
children of marriage - agnes e 45 , albert e 41 , William g 39 , Sydney j 36 , Lillian m 34 , oliver j 26 , living 2 males 3 females deceased.
no other comments.

[Neil Todd]

SISTERS

MARY A MACDOWELL, FATHER ROBERT, MOTHER FRANCES E, AT WELLINGTON 13938/1861   
MARY A MCDOWELL,   FATHER ROBERT, MOTHER FRANCES E, AT WELLINGTON 13938/1861

AGNES MACGOVERN,  NO FATHER LISTED MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON 13967/1861   
AGNES MCGOVERN,    NO FATHER LISTED MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON 13967/1861   
AGNES PACKER,         NO FATHER LISTED MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON 13967/1861

Neil
 

[majm]

Hi there,

Following on from the names from NSW BDM that Neil has found... 


Back in mid to late 19th Century NSW, the electoral rolls were established and maintained by the local Police (many of whom were born ‘overseas’, long before compulsory education commenced in NSW so ‘correct’ SPELLING of surnames was NOT a high priority for them). 

To be eligible to enrol you needed to be born in New South Wales, or otherwise be a British Subject either by birth or naturalisation.  You also needed to be 21 years of age or over, and a MALE.   Regardless of where your parents were born, or your parents ‘ethnicity’, if you were born in NSW, you were automatically a British Subject throughout all of the 19th century, and actually way into the 20th Century too.  It did not become NOT compulsory to enrol until sometime in the 1920s. 

So, back in the mid to late 1800s, some of the male British Subjects were eligible to vote in more than one electorate, as there were some property qualifications, but in general, if the man lived at the one address for longer than three months, or if he held a miner’s right, he would be eligible to enrol to vote.   The police took the details down under directions of local Police Magistrates. This male universal franchise (dating from about 1858)  did not exclude men who were of Aboriginal descent, and there are many examples of men listed on those early NSW electoral rolls to confirm that.   I cannot confirm if the following chaps from the 1870 rolls were of Aboriginal descent.   The Federation of the Commonwealth of Australia commences from 1901 and the Commonwealth Franchise Act of 1902 had an impact on the ways the electoral rolls were compiled in the early 20th Century. 

NSW Electoral Roll for the electorate of WELLINGTON 1870  (covering much of both Molong and Wellington Police Districts)
John MCGOVERN, residence at Beri Creek (Wellington Police District)
John MCGOVERN, residence at Shepherd’s Creek (Wellington Police District)
Robert MCDOWELL, holding a miner’s right, at Ironbarks  (Wellington Police District)           

NO MENTION of the surnames FIRTH or PACKER on that 1870 Wellington roll.

NSW electoral roll for the electorate of MUDGEE 1870 
NO MENTION of the surnames McGovern, (Macgovern), McDowell (Macdowell) Firth or Packer.

https://www.nla.gov.au/sites/default/files/family-history-sources.pdf

Re the 1927 death cert, I notice that Agnes' son was the informant.  So it is likely he was providing that information to the funeral director at the same time as he was arranging the funeral and contacting the family and making all the arrangements and grieving himself.  Perhaps FIRTH was a name that he remembered from his childhood, or perhaps it was a memory from one of his siblings.  However, it may well be less reliable information than the first hand information that Agnes would have been asked to provide when she married.   

 So may I ask if you have an official transcription of her marriage certificate?   

On her marriage certificate her last name is firth, What we know of is when mother died Walter sherry and his wife took care of the girls . Agnes may was born in 1862 married William James baker in Mudgee 1882 died 30th June 1927 in Annandale  nsw . Trying to find out the events from her birth until she got married 1882 its a mystery

It is possible that there are blanks on that certificate, as many rural NSW marriage certificates from the 1870s and 1880s are not complete, BUT if it has the details of which church and which minister, then it is possible to follow up with that denomination and seek the church records of that marriage.   The clergy always were required to ask for the details of the parents of the bride and the groom. Hopefully, if there's blanks, the following thread may help  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0 

Cheers,  JM

[sparrett]

alice eliza baker is my 2nd great grand aunt the one you have put up and married William bottom George and eliza is alice parents no there not the parents to agnes husband William, Blimey yes she is definitely sister inlaw it is on my tree as that. George & eliza my 3rd great grand parents Agnes mother & father inlaw,  I only got cert on agnes last week another cousin sent to me.
 

Although it is not really relevant to your main query, I'm afraid I cannot make sense of what you have said here about the relationship between Alice Eliza BOTTOM and Agnes BAKER.

George BAKER and wife Eliza had daughter Alice Eliza BAKER who married William BOTTOM.
William BAKER married Agnes FIRTH
BUT (you say) William BAKER and AGNES BAKER are not siblings.
They have different parents.
However, you say, Agnes BAKER and Alice BAKER are sisters in law.

Sue

 Sue

[majm]

Hi there,

ADD, yes, I am also a tad confused re that post describing the connection between Alice and Agnes

You are seeking info about Agnes prior to her marriage in 1882….  And you have Walter SHERRY as raising the two sisters, and that Walter was mayor of Mudgee….

So, here’s some info on a Walter SHERRY and likely brother George, at Mudgee…

NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
George SHERRY, household, Gladstone St
Walter SHERRY, household, Market St


NSW ER 1878 MUDGEE
Walter SHERRY, freehold, Church Street

So, between 1870 and 1878, perhaps Walter moved from Market St (where he was renting) to Church St (where he owned the land) and perhaps continued to conduct his business at Market St ?

Greville Post Office Directory 1875
Walter SHERRY, tailor, Market Street


NSW State Records holds a Deceased Estate file for a W SHERRY of Mudgee who died 22 February 1902.  http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=15&new=1

 The Sydney Morning Herald 26 Feb 1902 SHERRY. —February 22, 1902, at his residence, Church-  street, Mudgee, Walter Sherry, J.P., of the firm of  Sherry and Nelthorpe, aged 72 years. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14447785

Walter SHERRY mentioned as an Alderman at Mudgee http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107173472?  Evening News 19 Feb 1873.     So he may well have become mayor once the girls were grown up as he was elected as an Alderman as per SMH 8 Feb 1890.http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28277488 … agh, here he is as the Mayor of Mudgee  http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113760892 Evening News 10 February 1892

It seems George and Walter were from the UK, as per the following cutting SMH 17 Jan 1860 “Walter SHERRY, late of Jersey, your brother George wishes to hear from you. " http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13035612


Cheers, JM

[majm]

the father is aboriginal he was a stockman on a property in mudgee I was told in them days who they worked for they recorded them down as animal names not their real name I do know his name was johnny was born in 1841 in mudgee and died in 1875 in mudgee age of 34 is weird the mother and father died the same age. Mother died of suffication.

and

information as follows on death registry
Ref No - 1864 / 4656      Name :  Frances Firth    DOB : 22 -08 - 1864  Death : Mudgee   Place of birth Ireland   Informant : S Moore Undertaker Mudgee   Cause of death Suffocating Catarrh   
Medical Attendant W King      Date Last Seen:   22 - 08 - 1864    Burial :  24 - 08 - 1864   Minister and Religion ; Rev James Gunther  Church of England      Witnesses : Thomas Wesley , William Caplin

and

frances the girls mother was born firth she never married

and

in marriage section has place of marriage  unknown age unknown name of spouse unknown  children of marriage agnes 3 mary 18mths witness of death is Thomas Wesley , William caplin

May I please ask
  HOW you know that Frances was born FIRTH
and also
  HOW how know that she never married.    

May I please mention that I am very NSW centric in my own family history research, (several generations of my families were in rural Central Western and Far Western NSW during most of the 19th Century and into the 20th) and I am not aware of any records showing Aboriginal people with ANIMAL names rather than their own 'real'  names.   

Have you researched the marriage of a Josiah TROWBRIDGE and a Frances FIRTH from 1853/4 ... This predates NSW BDM civil registrations.  However, it is indexed on both NSW and QLD bdms, as it seems to be a marriage in that part of THEN New South Wales that was hived off in 1859 to become Queensland.    There's many families who moved freely on the stock routes throughout rural NSW and QLD in the 1860s....  Perhaps there's a connection?

Cheers,  JM 

[majm]

Merlin

Yes that's lyn my cousin she doesn't have birth certificates of the girls she got confused only marriage of agnes and death of mother she is still looking for answers aswell

So, your cousin has Agnes' marriage cert.   Would you please type up the info that that document, particularly what info (if any) is noted there for Agnes' parentage .... and Agnes' age and place of birth, and WHO gave consent for Agnes to marry, and Agnes' usual residence, and her status (spinster, widow)  and the clergyman and denomination,

I will try to follow up once I have the details from that 1882 marriage cert.   The info on the marriage certificate is of course FIRST HAND information provided by the bride and the groom.    ALL the info is likely to be on the original parish register (if C of E, likely there's at least two registers to check) and not all that info would have been sent through to NSW BDM when Agnes married.   

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hi there,

I have been looking at some photos uploaded to a public tree at Ancestry.  There’s six photos attached to Agnes May FIRTH on this particular tree.  NONE of these photos give me any reason to consider that either of Agnes’ parents were of Aboriginal descent.     Perhaps you should be contacting that tree owner to validate the photos and to share info.

Edit to note that I Removed the SNIPS. 

Cheers,  JM

[bron63]

Majam

I have them photos also in my tree under agnes no photos are of her parents is all agnes may the child photo you have put up aswell is  Agnes May at  7 years old in this picture. Picture dated 1869 and your saying to me she doesn't have aboriginal features look closer.