Knighton from Liverpool born 1902

[heywood]

I am trying to find a baptism for Arthur.

In 1899 for John Albert's baptism, the address is 7 Houlton Street - godparents Thomas Canning and Mary Ellen Carpenter.
The Carpenters are at that address in 1901 and Thomas Canning is next door so it does all seem to link together - somehow 

I've found him - transcribed as Heighton.

Arthurus Knighton - mixtae religionis . No address given just the reference to mixed religion where other entries show the address!
Parents James and Charlotte and Mary Ellen Carpenter is godmother -again!

[heywood]

Knighton Confirmations

I am just adding these for a time line - all Latin

Sacred Heart Church

1906   Elizabetha   Confirmed Maria Agnes     sponsor Joanna Carpenter

1908.  Arthurius.    Confirmed Josephus.        Sponsor. Gulielmus Carpenter

1912.   Jacobus.      Confirmed Josephus.        Sponsor Josephus Smyth

1912     Helena.        Confirmed Maria.            Sponsor Elizabetha Carpenter


Also at Sacred Heart

Joanna (Jane) Carpenter had a sponsor Maria Smith.
Jane Carpenter sponsor to Catharina Smith.

Jacobus Knighton sponsor to Alfredus Lawe in 1913. Is that your James or his father! Probably yours as he was already confirmed he would be eligible to stand as sponsor, I think.

So there is perhaps a Smith relationship but that could be through Carpenter name  . They could just be linked through neighbourhood etc. I think the Smyth/Smith parents were Irish so just ignore for now.

[heywood]

Looks as though Arthur was in Merchant Navy also. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8045518

[jimrob]

With the addition on Arthur, it seems the younger generation is being identified and since both Charlotte White Knighton and Mary Ellen Carpenter named their first daughters Eliza, I am guessing that their mother's first name was also Eliza. So if I find baptism records for Charlotte and Mary I might find their mother's full name -- but I have to be careful not to get them confused with the other White family identified with the same names and ages living nearby -- in fact sharing those names makes me think they are part of the extended family anyway -- all the commonly used family names point that way -- Can anyone kindly advise me of the best source for the Catholic baptism records for Liverpool/West Derby ?
Thanks, Jim R>

[jimrob]

And that would help confirm Charlotte and Mary's birth date too.

[heywood]

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk. Has RC baptisms but not early enough.
Ancestry also has them.

If I have the right Nottingham family for James he is listed as James W in 1881 - aged 11 yrs.

There is a death of James W Knighton 57 yrs in Sept 1927, Nottingham.

Also, if this is the right family, there is a brother Arthur. He is in Eccles, Lancashire in 1901 which is Barton upon Irwell registration district. That could account for baby John Albert's death being registered there.

[heywood]

Any thoughts jimrob - the death in 1927 and the possible brother connection?

[jimrob]

Heywood -- yes, it looks like they are part of James Albert's family -- the dates and locations seem right --
and I am gradually sifting methodically back through all the data I have been presented with to establish  the fullest picture. Both families use similar names when children are born, causing some confusion when brothers and sisters have children of about the same ages with same names.

My major problem remaining is that you have discovered that Mary White Carpenter's father is Patrick whereas the Marrriage entry I recently obtained show Charlotte's father as Alfred – That is a dilema, Alfred v. Patrick.

December 4, 1901, the date of birth given on the several documents I have pertaining to James Albert Knighton, convince me that I have identified the right James Albert Knighton, my father who died November 7, 1929, several months before I was born.

I can also be sure of the names of the parents of James Albert Knighton because they are given on the baptism entries of the St. Michael Catholic Church, in Liverpool (or possibly West Derby – part of Liverpool). The matching birth date is given as December 4, 1901.
When baptised he appears to be living at 30 Cottenham Street.
His parents are noted as Charlotte, former surname White, and James Knighton.
And I have accounted for his siblings to a small deree

The baptism entry shows the godmother to be Mary Ellen Carpenter, Charlotte's sister and the aunt to James Albert as shown on 1911 census when she was taking care of James Albert and some of his siblings. Charlotte's sister became Mary Carpenter on her 1886 marrriage to William Carpenter.

Because of the differing brifes father's names, Alfred and Patrick, what I am not 100% sure about is that I have the right marriage certificate for James Albert's mother and father. The Entry of Marriage that I have is for Charlotte and James, it took place 22 July 1891 at St.Aidan's Catholic Church in West Derby. The ages are correct according to matching dates given elsewhere on census documents and the location also appears to be appropriate for the Knighton couple. And how likely is it that there would be two Knighton-White marriages – not very I'd say.

But there are other similarly aged Charlotte and Mary Whites – probably close relatives of our Charlotte and her sister Mary, living in the same parish, even on the same street and working in the same occupation.

[jimrob]

PS -- maybe the Alfred and Patrick Whites are brothers . . .