George and Elizabeth Lester/Leicester b 1770s - their marriage and parents

[smudwhisk]

M.E.O.T is Mile End Old Town. Limehouse is part of the East End now but was Middlesex up to the early 1900's. Lots of little areas around here

The East End was Middlesex up to the early 1890s, with London only being the historic square mile of the City of London.  Can't remember the exact date, but some time around 1892 London was expanded to encompass much of what had been Middlesex and metropolitan Surrey.  Its expanded subsequently too.  Unfortunately, the likes of ancestry and FindMyPast use the current county status of a place rather than what county it was at the time to index their records, which isn't helpful.

Its quite likely the MEOT George Lester will be the correct one as it was very close to Bow, and the family may have moved there when he was young hence he thought he was born there.  I've ancestors who moved into the East End from Romford, Dagenham, Woodford and Barking in the late 1700s and early 1800s, and then some who moved out again in the early 1900s.

[Jolee]

Too true smudwhisk, the way they moved the areas about are mind boggling, for example my parents married in 1934 in Barking reg district Romford, us three kids were born in Barking in the same house but one is reg Romford the other two in Ilford.
It may be of help but if you click on the reg district on Freebmd you get a list of areas and when they moved.

[pergamond]

Smudwhisk, I just want to say a big thank you for your pointer on Elizabeth Sir Lester. I have just received the 1845 marriage cert for Charlotte Lester and John Gibbs (who baptised a child with the unusual name of Elizabeth Sir Bedon Gibbs in 1848).

This cert confirms that Charlotte is my family, (father's name and occupation, plus witnesses), so the Elizabeth Sir Lester buried in 1844 will more than likely be my Elizabeth - Charlotte's mother.

[smudwhisk]

Glad to be of some help.

[pergamond]

Have just received the 1844 Death Cert for Elizabeth Sir Lester. No maiden name or parents mentioned, however her husband is.The informant was Rose-anna Lincoln from Barking.

In the 1841 census Rose Lincoln lived at 6 Heath Street, while George and Elizabeth Lester lived at 5 Heath St, so they were neighbours. Rose's husband was a fisherman (in the 1851 census), as were some of the Lester family. So I do think this Elizabeth Sir Lester is the right one.

I wondered where the 'Sir' originated. If she was the Elizabeth Saltmash baptised in Romford, Essex 20 May 1777, her mother was Mary, father unknown. As Smudwhisk discovered, Elizabeth's granddaughter was baptised Elizabeth Sir Bedon Gibbs. Could the'Sir' and the 'Bedon' be clues to Elizabeth's father?

Has anyone else had experience in naming and parentage in this sort of situation? Where would one go from here? (I've tried looking up Bedon as a surname and a place without any clear leads.)

[smudwhisk]

You don't get parents unfortunately on England & Wales death certificates, wish you did it could make some things much easier but is obviously dependent on the informant's knowledge.

It may be worth looking at Rose Anna Lincoln to see if there is any connection with the Lester or Saltmash families.  She may just have been a neighbour or friend but she could also have been related, its worth a look.

As to whether the Elizabeth Saltmash baptised in Romford in 1777 is Elizabeth Sir Lester, its possible but you really need to have a look in many of the surrounding parishes for Saltmash entries at that time to see who there is.  I suspect the Bedon name could perhaps be from the Gibbs family (as it would seem to be the first time it appears) but obviously the Sir surname has something to do with the Saltmash family, or so it would seem.  Its less likely that Bedon would be a place name at this time. 

Whether you would ever confirm Elizabeth's father's name if she is illegitimate is debateable, sometimes you can get lucky with a baptism entry (although obviously not in this case) or possibly a bastardy bond if one survives.  But in the latter's case, it would only exist if the mother was looking for some sort of parish help which would mean she had to declare who the father's was so that the parish could recoup the costs.  With the stigma that there was with illegitimacy at that time, many families would avoid this and just help out financially.

Its possible Elizabeth originated in one of the other neighbouring parishes, or even a wider area, and that the Sir middle name was a family name.  The use of surnames as middle names does always denote illegitimacy, I've examples of both.  It could be a mother's maiden name or possible go back a few more generations.  Not a lot of Essex has been transcribed and indexed so it will unfortunately mean a trawl through the parishes for all available Saltmash entries even if there isn't an obvious connection because you may find one later.

[pergamond]

Thank you - a very full reply - and I will put more time into researching Rose Lincoln's background as well as the Saltmash family. It was the use of the name 'Sir' that surprised me. I've so far been unable to track its use as a surname, but will keep looking.

[smudwhisk]

Just a thought, its worth bearing in mind with the illegitimate Elizabeth in Romford that if her mother married subsequently, she may have adopted a step father's name and wouldn't have married under Saltmarsh.  Needs taking into consideration because often illegitimate children woud adopt a step father's name, even though not their father, to save face.  Doesn't always happen but can do.