Lovise FREDERIKSEN b.1842 + Louisa JENSEN d.1906

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello Spades... 

Hope you don't mind me making the following post on Rootschat. It's related to a thread on the TradeMe Genealogy board that never really got off the ground. It seems the original poster abandoned it a while ago.

As TradeMe Genealogy is a private board (i.e non-googled) I'd rather post this belated reply to Rootschat so that Google can archive it for future reference.

Plus on Rootschat I can use italics, bold, etc... much nicer to read :-)

The family are mentioned in several on-line trees and websites but there are a lot of conflicting details. The main problem is that none of the tree owners cite their sources. I can remedy that and hopefully clarify things.

Also a lot of websites only give you partial information as they want you to join up or subscribe. Most annoying but not a concern here on Rootschat.

The caveat is that I've not actually purchased any birth, marriage or death certificates. Nor have I actually answered the original question posed in the TradeMe thread. I've simply made the waters slightly less muddy. So thoughts and theories welcome

As I said... hope you don't mind :-)

All the best
Beg

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The original TradeMe poster (Islandbreeze) asked for help in finding out about his/her Danish grandmother.

  - Mabel Fredrickson arrived [in NZ] with only her mother. It was just the two of them.

 - Mabel married Alex Gough.

 - Mabel and Alex died one day apart and were buried at Taita Cemetry, Lower Hutt.

 - Her mother married a Mr Webster we think here in NZ.

The following information was found by TradeMe researcher Stock

BDM NZ Marriages
1906/2208 Mabel FREDERICKSON to Joseph Alexander GOUGH - d.o.m 21 May 1906

The following information was found by TradeMe researcher Carbs51

BDM NZ Deaths
1959/22059 - GOUGH, Mabel May - 68 years

This ties in with info for the couple found on the Taita cemetery website.

Hutt Council cemetery database
http://iportal.huttcity.govt.nz:83/?Tab=27

So Mabel May GOUGH née FREDERICKSON born c.1891 d.1959 is Islandbreeze's grandmother.

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TradeMe researcher Stock found a 1911 "In Memoriam" notice inserted by a "May and Alex Gough". I'm reasonably sure that this is Mabel May and Joseph Alexander GOUGH using their middle names. The 1920 death notice for their son Eric also mentions "Alex and May of Nelson Street, Petone", not "Joseph and Mabel".

JENSEN - In loving memory of my dear grandmother Louisa Jensen
who departed this life on January 1, 1906.
[...]
Inserted by her loving granddaughter and husband, May and Alex Gough.

Page 4
7 Jan 1911
Dominion
http://tinyurl.com/q9yqac6

The above-mentioned 1906 death was then found on BDM NZ

1906/1717 - JENSEN, Luica - 64 years- d.o.d 1 Jan 1906

So Luica/Louisa JENSEN born c.1842 d.1906  is Islandbreeze's great-great-grandmother.

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Following Islandbreeze's comment that Mabel's "[...] mother married a Mr Webster we think here in NZ" a likely link between the surnames JENSEN and WEBSTER was also found...

BDM NZ Marriages

1891/465 Mabel JENSEN to William WEBSTER - d.o.m 24 Jun 1891

BDM NZ Deaths
1945/18532 - WEBSTER, Mabel - 79 years

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Mabel WEBSTER, wife of William John WEBSTER, of Nelson Street, Petone, died 21 June 1945

Page 1
21 Jun 1945
Evening Post
http://tinyurl.com/oroljta

So now we have the following three women whose deaths were recorded in NZ:

Luica/Louisa JENSEN née  ? (1842 - 1906)
Mabel WEBSTER née JENSEN (1866 - 1945)
Mabel May GOUGH née FREDERICKSON (1891-1959)

The "In Memoriam" notice states that Luica/Louisa JENSEN and Mabel May GOUGH are grandmother and grand-daughter.

The obvious thing to do now is buy the 1906 marriage certificate for Mabel FREDERICKSON to Joseph Alexander GOUGH to see if Mabel FREDERICKSON's mother is Mabel WEBSTER née JENSEN. This was suggested by TradeMe researcher Carbs51. Nothing more has been added to the thread since then.

(continued)

[Beg Clonrode...]

The following is speculation. Open to suggestions/corrections etc

In 1896 William and Mabel WEBSTER had a son William George WEBSTER. He served in both WW1 and WW2

Page 3 of William WEBSTER's WW1 Service record gives his intended address on discharge as "c/o Mrs G JENSEN, Ihuraua, Masterton".

WEBSTER, William George - WWI 73152, WWII 598224 - Army
http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE20276326

Ihuraua is part of the Forty Mile Bush area in Northern Wairarapa. It was settled by scores of Scandanavians from the 1860's-ish onwards.

Not 100% sure of William's relationship to Mrs G JENSEN (Gertrude?) of Ihuraua but the WW1 NZ Services Personnel CD mentions a Peter JENSEN of Ihuraua. This Peter is actually Peter junior, the son of a Peter and Louisa JENSEN.

Peter JENSEN's attestation is on page 5 of his WW1 Service record.

JENSEN, Peter - WW1 63886 - Army
http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE19263653

Peter junior gives his place of birth as Christchurch NZ. He says his parents Peter and Louisa are Danish and have been in NZ for about forty years, so they arrived sometime in the 1870's. BDM NZ lists an 1875 birth for an Anna (Nina) Louise JENSEN, daughter of Peter and Louisa so presumably the parents arrived before 1875.

The Danish Emigration database lists a Peter JENSEN aged 26 and a Louise JENSEN aged 21 plus four children migrating to NZ in 1873. The four children are Larsine Mathilde JENSEN aged 9, Christine JENSEN aged 7, Anton Frederik JENSEN age 3 and Jens Anton JENSEN aged nine months. Contract no.366900 to New Zealand. Their last Danish address was Redsted in the county of Thisted.

Danish Emigration database
http://www.emiarch.dk/search.php?l=en

Louise's age is listed as 21 but if this is the right couple it must be an error, deliberate or otherwise. In 1873 she would have been 31.

The ship on which the JENSEN family migrated was the Punjaub into Lyttleton Harbour, Christchurch. Their nine month old son Jens Anton JENSEN died on board.

Punjaub - Certificate of Deaths at Sea
http://tinyurl.com/mfkobty

The child Jens Anton JENSEN was born in the parish of Lyby in the county of Viborg, Denmark on 18 Nov 1871. He was the son of Peter JENSEN and Lovise FREDERIKSEN.

Jens Anton JENSEN - 1871 birth register entry

Low quality
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn2034/churchlisting14809/opslag1108736

High quality - Java required

Kirkebøger
Amt: Viborg
Herred: Salling Nørre
Sogn: Lyby
Kirkebog: Lyby (Ny udgave)
Fra 1854 Til 1878
Opslag 21
Entry no.3 - Jens Anton JENSEN
Born 18 Nov 1871
http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

Six months later the family have moved to Redsted in the county of Thisted.

In Redsted on 29 June 1872 a second recording of Jens' birth is made. I believe this has something to do with the child moving into Redsted parish and/or the parish becoming responsible for the child. I suspect the paperwork from this event was presented when the family booked passage to NZ. This could explain why the child's age is given as nine months, not one and a half years, when the family left Denmark for NZ via England in April/May 1873.

Jens Anton JENSEN - 1872 birth register entry

Low quality
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn1760/churchlisting18306/opslag3688779

High quality - Java required

Kirkebøger
Amt: Thisted
Herred: Morsø Sønder
Sogn: Redsted
Kirkebog: Redsted (Ny udgave)
Fra 1862 Til 1891
Opslag 18
Seventh entry from the top - Jens Anton JENSEN
http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

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Although this birth gives the mother's name as Lovise FREDERIKSEN the earlier births of her three other children, plus her marriage to Peter/Peder JENSEN, give her name as Lovise HINDBORG.

To explain this it's necessary to view the 1842 birth record for Lovise...

(continued)

[Beg Clonrode...]

In the parish of Hindborg, in the county of Viborg, Denmark there is an 1842 birth for a Lovise HINDBORG, daughter of Frederik Vilhelm GINESSER and Anna Marie PEDERSDATTER.

Low quality
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1961/churchbook/source9839/opslag3104802

High quality - Java required

Amt: Viborg
Herred: Hindborg
Sogn: Hindborg
Kirkebog: Hindborg (Ny udgave)
Fra 1813 Til 1851
Opslag: 17

The entry reads...

9 November 1842, Lovise Hindborg, døbt i Kirken 3de Søndag i Advent, d 11 December
Fruentimmeret Anna Marie Pedersdatter, Almisselem i Hindborg. 
Som Barnefader blev udlagt ung Karl Frederik Vilhelm Ginesser, opholdene sig for Tiden i Skive hos afskiged Toldbetjent Ginesser

Born November 9 1842 , Lovise Hindborg, baptized at church on the third Sunday of Advent, December 11.
Unwed mother Anna Marie Pedersdatter, pauper of Hindborg.
Supposed father is bachelor Frederik Vilhelm Ginesser, currently living in Skive with retired customs clerk Ginesser.

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Three years later, the 1845 Danish census for Hindborg parish in Viborg, Denmark lists...

Anne Marie Pedersdatter - 28 - Ugift - Almisselem - Dølbye
Luvise Frederiksdatter - 3 - Ugift - Hendes barn - Heri sognet

Anne Marie Pedersdatter - aged 28 - Unmarried - Pauper - born in Dølbye parish
Luvise Frederiksdatter - aged 3 - Unmarried - Her child - born in this parish

Five years later, the 1850 Danish census for Hindborg parish in Viborg, Denmark lists...

Anne Marie Pedersen - 33 - Ugift - Almisselem - Dølby Sogn
Louise Frederiksen - 8 - Ugift - Hendes Barn - Hindborg Sogn
Christian Peter Hindborg - 4 - Ugift - Hendes Barn - Hindborg Sogn

Anne Marie Pedersen - aged 33 - Unmarried - Pauper - born in Dølbye parish
Louise Frederiksen - aged 8 - Unmarried - Her child - born in Hindborg parish
Christian Peter Hindborg - aged 4 - Unmarried - Her child - born in Hindborg parish

Danish Demographic Database - Censuses
http://www.ddd.dda.dk/soeg_person_enkel_uk.asp

The 1860 census has a still unmarried Lovise as a maid.

The 1870 census has Lovise as an unmarried pauper with two daughters, Larsine Mathilde LAUSTEN aged 8 and Christine CHRISTENSEN aged 5.

Folketælling (Census)
Årgang: 1870
Stedbetegnelse: Landsogn
Amt: Viborg
Herred: Hindborg
Sogn: Dølby
Opslag 20
Entries no.64/65/66

http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

The 1870 census was taken in February.

In June of the same year Lovise HINDBORG has a son, Anton Frederik Vilhelm DØLBY.

For the record, here are links to the parish register entries for the births of Lovise's three children.

Translations were kindly supplied by Ralph Rasmussen of the DIS-Danmark family history forum.

The Danish word "Fruentimmer" can be translated as anything from "young unmarried mother" to "prostitute".

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Larsine Mathilde LAUSTSEN b.10 Oct 1864

Baptized in the church on October 23
Parents: unmarried woman (*) Lovise Hindborg.
Supposed father Laust Andersen, farmhand of Næsfeld.

Low quality
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1963/churchbook/source17326/opslag3472809

High quality - Java required

Amt: Viborg
Herred: Hindborg
Sogn: Oddense
Kirkebog: Oddense (Ny udgave)
Fra 1862 Til 1876
Opslag 25
Entry no.9 - Larsine Mathilde LAUSTSEN
Born 10 October 1864

http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

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Christine CHRISTENSEN b.5 Jun 1866

Baptized in the church on Trinity IIII, July 15.
Parents: unmarried woman (*), pauper Lovise Hindborg of the Ørenvad poorhouse.
Supposed father bachelor Peder Christensen from Tøllerup, Morsø.

Low quality
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1959/churchbook/source4223/opslag1856800

High quality - Java required

Amt: Viborg
Herred: Hindborg
Sogn: Dølby
Kirkebog: Dølby (Ny udgave)
Fra 1853 Til 1877
Opslag 43
Entry no.3 - Christine CHRISTENSEN
Born 5 June 1866

http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

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Anton Frederik Vilhelm DOLBY b.12 Jun 1870

Baptized in the church on Trinity V, July 17
Parents: unmarried woman (*) Lovise Hindborg of the Ørenvad poorhouse.
Supposed father bachelor Erik Nielsen.

Low quality
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn1959/churchbook/source4223/opslag1856782

High quality - Java required

Amt: Viborg
Herred: Hindborg
Sogn: Dølby
Kirkebog: Dølby (Ny udgave)
Fra 1853 Til 1877
Opslag 25
Entry no.3 - Anton Frederik Vilhelm DOLBY
Born 12 June 1870

http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

(continued)

(*)Edit by Moderator: 'Prostitute' altered to 'unmarried woman' as a more generous interpretation of Fruentimmer

[Beg Clonrode...]

In December of 1870 Lovise HINDBORG married Peder JENSEN.

Low quality - 1870 entry no.3
http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/churchbook/sogn1959/churchlisting4223/opslag1856849

High quality - Java required

Amt: Viborg
Herred: Hindborg
Sogn: Dølby
Kirkebog: Dølby (Ny udgave)
Fra 1853 Til 1877
Opslag 94
Entry no.3

http://www.sa.dk/content/dk/ao-forside

The entry reads...

Peder Jensen, ungsen fra Sahl Sogn,
en Søn af ugift Fruentimmer Ane Pedersdatter
af Hvidbjerg paa Mors
23 Aar gammel

Peder Jensen, young man from Sahl Parish,
the son of an unmarried woman(*)  Ane Pedersdatter
From Hvidbjerg paa Mors
23 years old

Ugift Fruentimmer Lovise Hindborg
Under Fattigvæsenets Forsørgelse Dølby Fattighuus
28 Aar gammel

Unmarried woman(*) Louise
In the care of welfare at the poor house in Dølby
28 years old

The witnesses were smallholder Søren Kaastrup and Jens Mildgaard of Ørenvad

The marriage took place on Tuesday December 20th in the parish church

The groom provided a vaccination certificate from 1852.
The bride provided a vaccination certificate from July 28, 1847.
Banns were proclaimed on November 12th.

The following year (1871) they have a son Jens Anton JENSEN, who dies in 1873 on the voyage out to NZ. The three older children, all now with the surname JENSEN, survive the voyage although the younger daughter Christine is admitted to hospital on arrival (source?).

Once in New Zealand Peder/Peter JENSEN and his wife Lovise/Louisa have at least three more children, one of whom is Peter junior born in 1877. In time, and as mentioned in the first post of this thread, Peter junior serves in WW1. His Army Service record mentions that he married in 1901. The marriage is registered in the district of Newman, which loosely covers the Forty Mile Bush area of North Wairarapa. The following year he had a daughter called Louisa, presumably named after her grandmother Louisa JENSEN.

In 1906 a Louisa/Luica JENSEN dies. BDM NZ Deaths fiche has her death registered in the above mentioned district of Newman in the Jan-Mar quarter.

And in 1911, also mentioned in the first post of this thread, Islandbreeze's grandmother Mabel May GOUGH née FREDERICKSON places an In Memoriam notice in the Dominion newspaper commemorating the 1 Jan 1906 death of her grandmother Louisa JENSEN.

The assumption is that the above 1906 death and the above 1911 In Memoriam notice relate to the same person, namely Lovise/Louisa/Luica FREDERIKSDATTER aka FREDERICKSON aka HINDBORG aka JENSEN.

If this assumption is right then the information originally given by Islandbreeze is wrong.

"[My grandmother] Mabel Fredrickson arrived with only her mother. It was just the two of them.

I think Islandbreeze's grandmother Mabel FREDERICKSON was born in NZ in 1891-ish.

For no real reason, except for the coincidence of names, I'm going with the theory that the 1889 Wellington birth for May JENSEN, daughter of Mabel and Laurence JENSEN is in fact the birth of Islandbreeze's grandmother Mabel FREDERICKSON. May was then looked after by her grandmother Louisa JENSEN née FREDERICKSON and two years later the mother Mabel married William WEBSTER.

To save future confusion, NZ school records relating to Mabel WEBSTER b.19 Aug 1891 and her guardian William WEBSTER are for Priscilla Mabel WEBSTER, daughter of William and Mabel WEBSTER née JENSEN  ( Thanks to KHP )

I don't know what became of Larsine Mathilde, Christine and Anton Frederik JENSEN. They were Louisa's three children who were born in Denmark and came over on the Punjaub in 1873. Presumably one of the girls eventually married William WEBSTER in 1891.

Louisa's children born in NZ (Nina, Peter and Violet) were easier to follow. I'm assuming that those three children listed on BDM NZ were the only children Louisa and her husband Peter had after they arrived. Having said that, various on-line trees mention other children.

There is an ITM lookup request for the 1906 GOUGH/FREDRICKSON marriage which might provide some info as Mabel FREDERICKSON would have been a minor.

Will report back if the ITM has anything of interest.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Regards
Beg

(*)Edit by Moderator: 'Prostitute' altered to 'unmarried woman' as a more generous interpretation of Fruentimmer.

[Beg Clonrode...]

Anyone have any thoughts?

tl;dr :-)

... thread on the TradeMe Genealogy board that [...] the original poster abandoned a while ago.

Spoke too soon. The original poster made a post to the TradeMe thread a few days ago.

Will update this thread if anything exciting happens.

Regards
Beg

[Beg Clonrode...]

I'm assuming the three children listed on BDM NZ (Nina, Peter and Violet) were the only children Louisa and her husband Peter had after they arrived. Having said that, various on-line trees mention other children.

Was looking through BDM NZ and came across these possible JENSEN births.

1879/13812 - JANSEN, Ludolf Johann - mother: Louisa - father: Peter

Possibly Adolphus John JENSEN (1880-1931). He is mentioned in various online trees as a son of Peter and Louise JENSEN


1884/12270 - JANSON, May - mother: Louisa - father: Peter

Age is seven years off but maybe Mabel GOUGH née FREDERICKSON.

Regards
Beg

[shanreagh]

'For no real reason, except for the coincidence of names, I'm going with the theory that the 1889 Wellington birth for May JENSEN, daughter of Mabel and Laurence JENSEN is in fact the birth of Islandbreeze's grandmother Mabel FREDERICKSON. May was then looked after by her grandmother Louisa JENSEN née FREDERICKSON and two years later the mother Mabel married William WEBSTER.'
I am a bit confused here. 

Who is Laurence Jensen?


Will we need to find a child of
Louisa & ? called Mabel for this to work?

The four children are Larsine Mathilde Laustsen JENSEN aged 9 born 1864 , Christine Christensen JENSEN aged 7 born 1866 , Anton Frederik Vilhelm Dolby JENSEN (father named as Erik Nielsen) age 3 born 1870 and Jens Anton JENSEN aged nine months ( dies on journey) Then the Peter/Louise partnership had possibly Nina, Peter and Violet and also 1879/13812 - JANSEN, Ludolf Johann - mother: Louisa - father: Peter

Possibly Adolphus John JENSEN (1880-1931).


1884/12270 - JANSON, May - mother: Louisa - father: Peter

But where does the Fredrickson fit in? Could Louisa have had a child in 1891, not her husband's so reverted to her maiden surname and note that this changes from Frederiksdatter to Frederiksen in Denmark. Mabel WEBSTER née JENSEN dates (1866 - 1945) put her birth as being in the time period when the mother Louise was still in Denmark.  Only child of louisa who was born in 1866 was Christine and not sure if she would be using her mothers maiden name?

As I said I'm confused!!

Just as a point of interest somewhere I read that the children of prostitutes who could not name a father or the named father disputed this were given the name of the town they were born in on the basis that presumably some body of the town fathered the child.....Hindborg and Dolby fit into this idea. By the time this family came to NZ they were all Jensens. 

[shanreagh]

Could Larsine Mathilde Jensen become Laura Mathilde Jensen and marry (1885/468)    Niels   Nikolaison.

[Beg Clonrode...]

Hello...

Somewhat surprised that someone has managed (bothered?) to make sense of this thread

Who is Laurence Jensen?

You're assuming JENSEN is Laurence's surname. Admittedly that's the usual case but there's nothing to say that it has to be.

Still, as I said, the only reason I mentioned this birth is because of the coincidence of names. It's nothing but a theory.

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Will we need to find a child of Louisa & ? called Mabel for this to work?

If by "a child of Louisa's named Mabel" you mean May GOUGH née Mabel FREDERIKSON then maybe that's the May JANSON b.1884 I mentioned in my previous post. She is the daughter of a Louisa and Peter JANSON (mispelled JENSEN?). No idea why she would be raised thinking that she is Louisa's grand-daughter as she claims in the In Memoriam notice. Or that she is a FREDERIKSON and not a JENSEN so I'm not too keen on this theory.

If by "a child of Louisa's named Mabel" you mean the Mabel JENSEN who married William WEBSTER in 1891 then it means there's either an unregistered Mabel born pretty much as soon as Peter and Louisa JENSEN arrived in 1873 (quite possible) who has added eight-ish years to her age (unlikely) or else one of Louisa's Danish-born daughters changed her name on arrival in NZ. The NZ-born and registered daughters are accounted for and the passenger list only mentions the two daughters Larsine and Christine.

FamilySearch
Page 7 - Punjaub - 1873 to Canterbury
http://tinyurl.com/nzxzy28

My working theory is that Larsine Mathilde became Mabel and had a child called May b.1889 with some guy called Laurence. Then two years later Larsine/Mabel marries William WEBSTER. She leaves her daughter May in the care of her mother (May's grandmother) Louisa. The child May grows up and in 1906, using the name Mabel FREDERICKSON, marries Joseph Alexander GOUGH.

As Mabel was only sixteen-ish when she married in 1906 there's a chance that the ITM can shed some light.

Another theory is that Mabel FREDERIKSON b.1891-ish is an unregistered adoption. Maybe a waif from a neighbouring family. Who knows :-)

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But where does the Fredrickson fit in?

That one's easy. Louisa's father was Frederik so she is Frederik's daughter (FREDERIKSDATTER). By the 1850's the Danish people had phased out the -datter suffix so Louisa became a FREDERIKSEN.

I'm not really getting too hung up on the half-dozen or so surnames associated with this family. Reasonably sure I've traced the correct Louisa and her children throughout their time in Denmark and up to their 1873 arrival in NZ. And it's definite that a Louisa JENSEN died in 1906 in the Wairarapa. It's proving that the two Louisa's are the same person which is proving to be the battle.

BDM certs would be helpful but not necessarily conclusive.

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For what it's worth, I think a child being named after the parish (e.g Luvise HINDBORG / Anton DØLBY) may also have something to do with the parent being "Almisselem" i.e living on charity. Here is an interesting thread on Danish Poor Relief. Second to last reply has a good explanation.

http://tinyurl.com/qjrlp4c

Here's my thread on Dis-Danmark asking for translations. It expands the abbreviated translations I gave earlier in this thread. Not too sure of the relevance but fresh eyes :-)

http://tinyurl.com/lqd7une

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Could Larsine Mathilde Jensen become Laura Mathilde Jensen and marry Niels Nikolaison

Red herring :-)

Scroll down to...

Nikolaisons Alpha Butter Factory
http://tinyurl.com/ond7gh2

I have a feeling the transcriber is Elaine321

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As I said I'm confused!!

Join the club

All the best
Beg