Lookup of Thomas & Sarah McDonald: Parents of Patrick

[Phenmark]

Rathanna is a townsland and a village(well just a few houses and a church really).Raheen is a townsland.
Townsland is basically an area of from 50 to 1000 acres of land with anything from none to 50 houses present.Basically its the smallest division of area in rural Ireland.
Parish in the sense you are using is the Roman Catholic parish of Borris Carlow.It contains 3 churches ie Borris,Ballymurphy and Rathanna.

Another map.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,676361,650411,4,3
Use this and you can find both Rathanna and Raheen to the East of Borris village.

Not a great explanation I will admit but people in Ireland are so familar with the concept of townslands that we rarely think about it.


http://www.borrisparish.ie/map/

This helps clarify. I'll check out the maps.
Thanks again!

[Phenmark]

I have found 2 marriages on roots Ireland. The first: John Bryan & Catherine Doyle-Married 01-Feb-1831 Parish / District: Leighlinbridge

The second: John Bryan & Catherine Doyle- Married: 23-Jan-1839
Parish / District: Borris

Is it possible that the children of the couple in Leighlinbridge Parish to have been baptized in Borris parish?  I ask because I have a Michael Bryan baptized Borris 1837 , address Rahana. I'm wondering if he is son of Leighlibridge couple.

I have 10 baptism records  with these  names as parents.  I notice that some addresses are Knockroe, the majority are Rahana (Ratana, Rathana).  Is the couple married in  Leighlinbridge likely to be on bap records with address as Knockroe, and the couple married in Borris on bap records with Rahana address?  Vice=versa?

[Phenmark]

Hi Steve, I was looking at Borris parish records and noted that the Thomas McDonald who appears in those records with Sally Rice as wife when children are born, was also noted earlier on as being married to Mary Kavanagh and residing in Raheen townland then too. If you believe this to be the correct Thomas. If this is the correct Thomas his marriage to Sarah/Sally may be just noted in a parish register as he may have come to the marriage with young children as he seems to have had some children with Mary as well as Sarah. Kim

Thanks!
I just came across the bap. records that you had mentioned for children of Thomas MacDonald and first wife, Mary Kavanaugh. It appears they had a son, James bap.1827 who may have died, as he and second wife, Sally Neil had a James in 1837. I am going on the assumption that the Raheen given as the address on practically all his children's bap records is Raheendarragh, civil parish of Kiltennell. All the bap records give Borris as parish/district, which I assume is the RC parish.

[Phenmark]

Have just had a quick look on Griffiths Valuation and there is a Thomas Mcdonnell listed as holding 6 acres and 4 perches from Henry Newton.
Worth a look as sometimes Mcdonald and Mcdonnelll were used interchangebly.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&PlaceID=177141&county=Carlow&barony=Idrone,%20east&parish=Kiltennell&tow

Also on the 1901 census a Michael Macdonald listed with family in Raheendarragh Rathanna.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Rathanna/Raheendarragh/1039918/

Above is assuming the family you are interested in were from Raheendarragh, Rathanna and not Raheenkyle, Rathanna.
Actually looking at Raheenkyle there are 2 Mcdonnell families there as well on Griffiths

Hi Noland01,
I was looking into the 2 Thomas McDonnells (McDonald) in Raheendarragh & Raheenkyle listed in Griffith's.  I think they are the same guy. The original shows him renting a house, land and "offices" in Raheendarragh, and renting land only in Raheenkyle. Both listings name Henry Newton as landlord.
 It's also interesting to note that some of his children's baptism records have his address as Raheens. Perhaps to indicate the fact that he rented in both townlands?
I want to thank you for pointing me towards Griffith's . I am learning how to read the originals.  This site is the best resource I have found! You, Kim and everyone who replied have really brought me a long way toward solid answers.
Thanks again,
Steve

[noland01]

As regards the address given on baptism's etc .Raheen could have been used for either or both townland's of Raheendarragh and Raheenkyle.

Unsure if either or both of these places are used with their shortened versions ie Raheen but its common everyday practice in many places to shorten some townlands names unless using them in an official capacity.Would think it likely that mid 19th century parish priests were not keeping records for posterity,rather just filling in the registers as best they could.
Can ask someone from Borris for you if Raheen commonly refers to either or both places.

My own townland has 2 spellings, both of which are used in an official capacity today and many other local ones are used with a shortened version at times.

See in one post you wonder if Borris refers to the RC parish which I think it does .Parish boundaries are in most cases unchanged for 100's of years so if you refer to the present RC parish website for Borris you will see a map which I would assume would have been the same as in early 19th century.

Civil parishes are gone as regards record keeping/administration but as far as I know they correspond to the parishes still used by C of I.

You will find a John Mcdonald listed in the Tithe Applotment books for Raheendarragh civil parish of Kiltinnell Co.Carlow.They are dated 1823-1837.

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?county=Carlow&parish=Kiltennell&townland=Raheendarragh&search=Search

Another link that might help with Carlow in a general sense
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/Records_index.htm

[Phenmark]

Thanks Noland1,
If you could ask about the shortened version, I would certainly appreciate it.  I found the John you mentioned in Raheendarragh in Tithe Appointments, as well as Thomas in Raheenkyle. I have been studying the maps and am struck by the close proximity of the townlands I am interested in- Raheendarragh, Raheenkyle, and Rathanna.  I am also finding some of the names of sponsors of Thomas McDonald and Sarah Neil's children in Griffith's, all in these towns.

[Phenmark]

Hi Steve, I was looking at Borris parish records and noted that the Thomas McDonald who appears in those records with Sally Rice as wife when children are born, was also noted earlier on as being married to Mary Kavanagh and residing in Raheen townland then too. If you believe this to be the correct Thomas. If this is the correct Thomas his marriage to Sarah/Sally may be just noted in a parish register as he may have come to the marriage with young children as he seems to have had some children with Mary as well as Sarah. Kim

Hi Kim,
May I ask if you got the "Rice" surname directly from the parish record? I'm wondering because I only come up with Sally Neil married to Thomas, no Sally Rice. Then again, I am reading a transcribed record on rootsireland.  I do think he was married to Mary Kavanagh before Sally.
Thanks for all your help.
Steve

[greeneyedgirl]

Hi Steve, In my transcribing of the Borris parish records I can see your problem. In Ireland because of the naming patterns you can have several cousins with the exact same name in the same parish/townland. After looking for the record of Michael baptism, I'm afraid there is no further help in terms of differentiating which of 2 sets of parents he belongs to. I am going to give you the transcribed register entries for all the children:

Edward
bapt. 2 June 1836 Rahana
parents:John Bryan-Cath Doyle
sponsors:John Cox-Margt Murray

Michael
bapt.24 Aug 1837 Rahana
parents:John Bryan-Kity Doyle
sponsors:Art Doyle-Citty Mas---

Anne
bapt: 4 Aug 1839 Rahana
parents:John Bryan- Kitty Doyle
sponsors: John Jordin- Mary Murphy

If you could find if Art Doyle is a brother to your Catherine that would let you know which are yours, as you know there are 2. I would stick with parish lines tho'.

For marriages there were these:

14 Feb 1833
Thomas McDonald and Mary Neil
witnesses:James Carty-Sally Neil

24 April 1834
Thomas McDonald and Sally Neil
witnesses:Patt McDonald-Betty Neil

5 Feb 1833
John McDonald and Biddy Nolan
witnesses:Thomas McDonald-Betty Neil

I would say that John is your Thomas' brother and that Sally,Betty and Mary are probably all sisters. Both your Thomas and the other Thomas resided in Rahana and had children there. They are probably 1st cousins and their fathers brothers. I found one birth in 1797 for a Thomas McDonald but I think it may be a bit early so I am going back to the records on Monday as I have only gotten through to 1805. If I come across Thomas or Sally/Sarah's birth I will let you know. Just to show you how closely the three families seem to be linked;

baptism:
Matthew
14 April 1839
parents:James Brian + Cath McDonald
sponsors:Tom & Ellen Neil

These are complete baptisms for Tom McD's kids if you don't have them.

3 May 1835 John
Thomas McDonald-Sally Neal
sponsors:John McEvoy-Mary Neal  Raheen

17 Feb 1837 James
Thomas McDonald-Sally Neil
sponsors:James O Neil- Mary Headon  Cranagh

29 June 1839 Patt
Thomas McDonald-Saly Neil
sponsors:Michael McCormick-Ellen Flood  Raheen

24 Oct 1841 Andrew
Thomas McDonald-Sarah Neil
sponsors:Andrew Neil-Cath Neil  Raheen

21 January 1844 Bernard
Tom McDonald-Saly Neil
sponsors;James Gahen-Cath Tool  Raheens

10 May 1846 Michael
Thos McDonald-Saly Neil
sponsors:Pierce Hayden-Mary Neil  Raheens

8 April 1849 Mary
Thos McDonald-Sally Neil
sponsors:James Hayden-Mary Somers Raheen

If I may also say do not discount multiple spellings of the names as most people during this time were illiterate and their names were spelt by whichever parish priest was on when each child was baptised. I have seen the same name listed back to back and spelt three different ways by same priest. In parish registers O'Brien is also Brien/Brine/Brian/Bryan and for McDonald you can have McDonel/McDonnel/McDonnell/McDonal.Lastly Neil/Neal/Nail/O'Neil/Neill etc etc.

I will continue to look through the registers to see if I can find more for you,like birth for Thomas and Sally. If you have anything specific you want let me know its cheaper than rootsireland. Kim

[Phenmark]

Hi Kim,
I was thinking exactly as you on all those points. I just last night was checking out Arthur Doyle. His father comes up as Jery on rootsireland bap. I couldn't definitively link him and my Catherine (Doyle) as siblings. I am looking at a Terence Doyle who may be her brother as well.
As for MacDonald's, I was also thinking, as you, that my Thomas had a cousin with the same name.
I think my Thomas may have been married to Mary Kavanaugh in Raheen (Rathanna) and then married my Sarah (Sally) Neil (1834). I am aware of another Thomas in Tomduff who married Mary Neil, whom, as you say, is likely Sarah's sister.
To say I appreciate your help would be an understatement!
Thanks so much, if you come across anything else, please let me know.
Steve