Author Topic: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA  (Read 6029 times)

Offline cando

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,332
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #9 on: Friday 12 December 14 03:58 GMT (UK) »
Is this the Mary Ann Kerr SAUNDERS formerly JONES nee KERR on the 1909 electoral roll and possibly the mother named on a birth registration of a Wm M KERR in 1892 and a Clifford JONESin Broken Hill in 1896?

Australian Electoral Roll
Western Australia
1906
SAUNDERS Mary Ann Varden Street, Kalgoorlie   HD
SAUNDERS William  Varden Street, Kalgoorlie  Labourer
1909
SAUNDERS Mary Ann Kerr 106 Victoria Road, East Fremantle  HD

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82946047
The Daily News  31 May 1904
RETURNS TO PERTH, HUSBAND SEEKS DIVORCE
At the Supreme Court this morning, Mr. Justice Parker heard tho petition for divorce of David Russell Jones from his wife Mary Anne Jones. William Saunders was named as co-respondent. Mr. C. R. Penny appeared for tho petitioner, and neither the respondent nor co respondent appeared,  Petitioner said he was a mill hand. He was married at Toowoomba, Queensland, in 1886, and lived with his wife at Chinchilla, Cairns, and other places in Queensland.
In 1890 they came to Western Australia, and after eleven months, went to Adelaide. Afterwards he left for Broken Hill to look for work, leaving his wife with some money in Adelaide. When he returned be was told she had gone to Broken Hill, so he went after her and found her engaged in a hotel at Broken Hill. She refused to leave with him, From 1892 to 1895 he was ill and his funds were exhausted, In 1895 he saw the co-respondent at Broken Hill, and asked him if he knew he was living with witness's wife. He answered, 'Is your name Jones?' and did not deny the allegation. Afterwards he was walking past the house, and he saw the co-respondent at breakfast, and the respondent waiting on him. Respondent ran into another room, and then co-respondent followed her and came out with a revolver, saying, 'Run, you skunk, or I'll shoot you.' Witness informed the police, He had not seen his wife since then, until last October. He had advertised for her. He tried the Salvation Army, but they failed to find her for him, He met her in Wellington Street in October, 1903, The co-respondent, Saunders, was there, She was speaking to a friend of his, who did not know her as anything but Mrs Saunders. He had never enough money to prosecute the case against his wife until just lately. He had not cohabited with his wife since they left Perth in 1891. His Honor adjourned the case until to-morrow, to enable evidence of the fact that the  respondent and co respondent were now living together to be called.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article25089758
The West Australian 1 Jun 1904
Jones v. Jones and Saunders.
David Russell Jones sued for a dissolution of his marriage with Mary Anna Jones, formerly Kerr. on the ground of misconduct with William Saunders, who was joined as co-respondent. Mr. Penny appeared for the petitioner. There was no appearance on behalf of the respondent or the co-respondent. The facts alleged were that the parties were married at Toowoomba, Queensland, on July 28, 1886, and lived together in that State for two and a half years. They then came to Western Australia, and resided for a time at Lion Mill. Subsequently they went to Adelaide, and the petitioner left the respondent there while he went to Broken Hill to seek for employment. On his returning to Adelaide some time later he learned that respondent had left and had taken a situation in a hotel at Broken Hill. He followed her there, but she refused to live with him. He after wards found that the respondent gave birth to a child in July, 1892 of which the co-respondent was the father. He also discovered that the respondent and the co-respondent were cohabiting at Broken Hill and went to the house where they were. He asked Saunders if he knew the respondent was his wife and Saunders replied by asking, "Is your name Jones?" Some words followed, and Saunders threatened him with a revolver. From that time he lost sight of them until he saw the respondent in Perth in November last and found she was still living with Saunders. The reason he had not instituted proceedings before was that he had suffered from lead poisoning in 1892, and had not had the means since then until quite recently to take action. His Honour said the evidence given by the petitioner being uncontradicted, was almost enough to satisfy him. He would like, however, to hear the evidence of someone who could testify to the fact that the respondent and co-respondent had been actually living as man and wife. The case was accordingly adjourned to the next morning, in order that the person who had served the citation notices upon the respondent and co-respondent might be called.

Continued....
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline cando

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,332
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #10 on: Friday 12 December 14 03:58 GMT (UK) »
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82944328
The Daily News 2 Jun 1904
THE JONES DIVORCE CASE.
A DECREE NISI GRANTED.
At tho Supreme Court Him morning, Sir, Justice Parker continued the adjourned hearing of the divorce case in which David Russell Jones bought a dissolution of marriage from his wife, Mary Anne Jones, on the ground of desertion and adultery with tho co-respondent, William Saunders.
The petitioner further gave evidence of the serving of the co-respondent with the petition, when the latter told petitioner that his wife was in tho hospital. Petitioner went there, but could not see her. At a later date he was successful when he asked for 'Mrs. Saunders,' and saw his wife. Mrs, Ryan, boardinghouse-keeper, King street, said a Mr and Mrs. Saunders had a room in her house, and lived there for about, a fortnight, She saw Mr. Saunders given a paper by Mr, Jones and another man.
A decree nisi granted, to be made absolute in three months. There were no children of the marriage.

Marriage in Queensland
1886/C440
JONES David Russell
KERR Mary Ann
28 Jul 1886

You can purchase this online.  Mary Ann's place of birth and parents' names including mother's maiden name should be detailed.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m

Births in New South Wales

8708/1892
KERR William M
No father recorded  Mother Mary A
District Broken Hill

Possibly his death
3766/1892     
SAUNDERS    William M    
Father William  Mother Mary
District Broken Hill

20224/1896
JONES Clifford
No father recorded  Mother MaryAnne
District Broken Hill.


There is no marriage on the WA Marriage Index for William SAUNDERS to Mary Ann JONES before his death in 1910.

It would be interest to see what information is on William and Mary's death certificate ::)s.

Deaths
SAUNDERS    William               
District Subiaco  Reg#118  1910

SAUNDERS    Mary A    
District Fremantle  Reg#348    1944
and according to her burial record she was born c1868.

Perhaps the year on the photograph should have been 1901 for the child to appear 5/6 years of age.

Cando
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline fifer1947

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,906
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #11 on: Friday 12 December 14 09:07 GMT (UK) »
Wow Cando I'm going to have to revise my thinking on Mary Ann Kerr, and take this morning to digest your excellent info (I'm in Scotland hence time difference)
Ireland, Co Antrim: Kerr; Hollinger; Forsythe; Moore
Ireland, Co Louth: Carson; Leslie
Ireland, Co Kerry: Ferris
Scotland, Perthshire/Glasgow:  Stewart
England, Devon/Cornwall: Ferris, Gasser/Jasser/Jesser, Norman

Offline fifer1947

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,906
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #12 on: Friday 12 December 14 10:13 GMT (UK) »
OK having had a think about this, the key certificate to get is the 1886 marriage to Jones and the most likely (as a first marriage) to contain the truth? 

*If* it turns out to be my Mary Ann Kerr everything else falls into place.

It's doubtful if the death certs will be correct MA Kerr would have lied on William's and I doubt if Clifford knew his parents weren't married.  From MA (Kerr) Saunders burial record I make her born abt 1858 not 1868? (that's 2 years older than my gt grandfather) Wm & MA appear to have had a fairly respectable place in society in Perth as does Clifford.

First Name    MARY ANN
Last Name    SAUNDERS    KB00075911
Aged (Years)    86    Date of Death    03/11/1944
Suburb    PALMYRA

Just to add to my problems I also have another photo of two girls (with no written details) said to have been Australian rellies of the same gt grandfather and no clues whatsoever  :o My Kerr's from Antrim were a secretive bunch  :-[
Ireland, Co Antrim: Kerr; Hollinger; Forsythe; Moore
Ireland, Co Louth: Carson; Leslie
Ireland, Co Kerry: Ferris
Scotland, Perthshire/Glasgow:  Stewart
England, Devon/Cornwall: Ferris, Gasser/Jasser/Jesser, Norman


Offline fifer1947

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,906
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #13 on: Friday 12 December 14 12:18 GMT (UK) »
Jones story to the divorce court doesn't stack up  ;)

i) Dates are out re birth of William in Broken Hill in July 1892. 
ii) contradictory statements "He had not cohabited with his wife since they left Perth in 1891."  but he also stated In 1890 they came to Western Australia, and after eleven months, went to Adelaide.

I guess he had deserted her in Adelaide earlier than stated (why say 11 months? worked out to coincide with Wm's birth?) with no funds for over a year possibly more, hence her following him to Broken Hill and her job in a hotel there. But we only have his word for any contact between 1890 and 1895.

I must check Trove for his 1895 "revolver" report to police claim. Trove is BRILLIANT btw  :D

There's nothing to say that MA Kerr knew Saunders in Adelaide early enough to have conceived a child around  Oct 1891 or indeed a date when she left Adelaide for Broken Hill.

I think a reason for his reappearance at that point could have been to try and squeeze some money from the couple.  His later reappearance/divorce proceedings possibly signifies another marriage soon after?

Oh! What an excitiing family I have  :D

I'm going to order the marriage cert on Monday (there are outages this weekend due to maintenance)
Ireland, Co Antrim: Kerr; Hollinger; Forsythe; Moore
Ireland, Co Louth: Carson; Leslie
Ireland, Co Kerry: Ferris
Scotland, Perthshire/Glasgow:  Stewart
England, Devon/Cornwall: Ferris, Gasser/Jasser/Jesser, Norman

Offline fifer1947

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,906
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #14 on: Friday 12 December 14 13:28 GMT (UK) »
Oh dear no wonder young William died "The 1892 Broken Hill miners' strike was a sixteen week strike <snip> During the four months from July to November 1892" also the lead mined at Broken Hill was probably the source of Jones' lead poisoning.
Ireland, Co Antrim: Kerr; Hollinger; Forsythe; Moore
Ireland, Co Louth: Carson; Leslie
Ireland, Co Kerry: Ferris
Scotland, Perthshire/Glasgow:  Stewart
England, Devon/Cornwall: Ferris, Gasser/Jasser/Jesser, Norman

Offline rosball

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,263
  • John Scott Henderson 1853 Scotland -1919 Vic
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #15 on: Friday 12 December 14 23:52 GMT (UK) »
Mary's death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article44984440

Regards
Ros
Let's not tolerate bullying !
Herrington Kent  Henderson Scotland Kerr Scotland Reston Scotland  Smith Scotland  Kellow Cornwall  Doney Cornwall  Wadeson Lancashire  Whiteley Yorkshire Gregan Ireland

Offline rosball

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,263
  • John Scott Henderson 1853 Scotland -1919 Vic
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 13 December 14 03:39 GMT (UK) »
Eric Clifford Magnus Saunders died in http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00117947

Marriage in 1944

Photo of wife http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59325964

Eric served in ww2  see national archives

Regards
Ros.  Using iPad. Difficult to post links


Let's not tolerate bullying !
Herrington Kent  Henderson Scotland Kerr Scotland Reston Scotland  Smith Scotland  Kellow Cornwall  Doney Cornwall  Wadeson Lancashire  Whiteley Yorkshire Gregan Ireland

Offline cando

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,332
    • View Profile
Re: Amalgamated Carpenters' & Joiners' Society 1891-7 Broken Hill SA
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 13 December 14 05:47 GMT (UK) »
I have removed the infomation as it doesn't appear to be relevant.

Cando
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk