Date & age please - John Hayter carte de visite

[josey]

From the Morning Post 12 Aug 1822 [italics as printed]

On Jack Straw's Castle Hampstead Heath being repaired etc

Come and behold no "Straw built shed"
But the fam'd Castle of Jack Straw
Who raised of yore, his rebel head
'Gainst England's King and England's Law

See! now no man of straw lives here,
But honest Hayter liegeman true,
Who offers good and wholesome cheer,
to Prince or subject, me or you

With best of food, of beer and wines -
Here may you pass a merry day;
So shall "mine host", while Phoebus shines,
Instead of straw, makes good his hay.

ADDED: Apropos Monica's find of the summons for serving booze on a Sunday I found this, showing reason prevailed, in the Morning Chronicle 29 Mar 1833
Wednesday at Marylebone, Mr J Hayter landlord of Jack Straw's Castle on Hampstead Heath was summoned by Johnson for serving liquors during divine service. Mr Rawlinson said he was decidedly of opinion that the poor artizans and others who rambled out to that healthy spot, Hampstead heath, on a Sunday, ought  not to be prevented from enjoying themselves in a reasonable  manner; and if they overstepped reason, then there was a law to punish them. The only footing he could put it on, was to consider persons walking on Hampstead Heath travellers; and the information was, therefore, dismissed.

[MonicaL]

How many John Hayters, victuallers are there in the general London area c. 1841?!

From 1841, at Whittlebury Street, Marylebone - St Pancras:

John Hayter 58 victualler
Charlotte Hayter 33
Charlotte Hayter 2 born in County https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMVK-3J6
George Woods 70 Ind ...think this is Charlotte's father, see 1851 with the ref to Woods surname
Catherine Woods 35 born N.K.
Hannah Woods 40 Ind
Martha Fanthan 20 female servant

Monica

[MonicaL]

Josey, think this is them in 1851. Think it is at 41 Whittlebury Street:

John Hayter 68 licenced victualler b. Wasfield, Berkshire
Charlotte Hayter 43 b. Deptford, Kent
Ann Hayter 15 b. Hampstead, Middlesex
Catherine Hayter 14 b. Hampstead, Middlesex
Charlotte Hayter 8 b. St Pancras, Middlesex
Cath Woods 48 wife's sister b. London, Middlesex
Amelia Mason 21 domestic servant
HO107/1496/480/26

From tree info, as mentioned, Charlotte Woods looks to be a second wife. First wife, m. 1808, an  Elizabeth Spilman, marriage in Marylebone.

Monica

[MonicaL]

Josey, have you got access to Ancetry to view their family trees? This is the one I am looking at for the John Hayter we are discussing here http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/52087512/person/13460300515

This John looks to have had a brother Charles born c. 1786. Additonal info added for him, but not sure on sources etc.

Is this Eleanor's 1818 entry here? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQY4-9H3 Also, a sibling Richard in 1817? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYRX-LFX Their christening entries don't help at all...father Charles' occupation simply shows as 'Trade'. The Clerk obvioulsy had a style  Another like sibling, a Charles Hayter chr. in 1813 at St Marylebone to Charles and Ann...father also just 'trade'.

As you can see from the family tree mentioned above (hopefully  ), they include a brother Charles b. 1786 who married an Ann Sheridan Dick in 1809. Could this be the Charles, father of Eleanor?

The only reference I can see, from this tree and also a possible son also marrying in St Marylebone in the early 1840s, is a father Charles Hayter showing as a carpenter rather than a blacksmith.... This Charles Hayter, with wife Ann, showing in censuses up to 1861.

Monica

[josey]

Many many thanks for all this Monica. May all help to solve Eleanor's parentage [as is my hope]. I had just looked up that 1841 for John Hayter when my chauffeur duties to the station [Mr Josey returning from a week's work in Newcastle] intervened. 

Is this Eleanor's 1818 entry here? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQY4-9H3 Also, a sibling Richard in 1817? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYRX-LFX Their christening entries don't help at all...father Charles' occupation simply shows as 'Trade'. The Clerk obviously had a style  Another like sibling, a Charles Hayter chr. in 1813 at St Marylebone to Charles and Ann...father also just 'trade'.

Yes, that's her baptism. I have possible siblings Ann 1810 Amelia 1812, Charles 1813, Ann 1815, Richard 1817 & Charles 1820.

Josey, have you got access to Ancestry to view their family trees? This is the one I am looking at for the John Hayter we are discussing here http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/52087512/person/13460300515

I will investigate that today. Certainly fits with John the victualler. It is worth putting on the back burner - this Charles may have been born in Hampshire, worked in London as a blacksmith while having his children then moved back to Hampshire as a carpenter by 1841.

Other items I had on the back burner:
[1] I had a possible marriage - Charles Stephenson Hayter to Ann Dunevan in 1810 in St George Hanover Square but no proof these are Eleanor's parents.
[2] I found a burial of a Charles Hayter aged 52 from St Marylebone in 1839 in Whitfields Memorial Church [non-conformist] in Camden registration Marylebone 1839 Q4 1 126, have ordered this certificate today to find his occupation.
[3] Marylebone 1821 & 1831 census indexes show Hayters, need to get to LMA to see the actual documents to find head of household names. 
[4] Marriage of Ann Foulston widow daughter of Charles Hayter smith to John Hayter son of Samuel Hayter smith 3 Aug 1845 St James Paddington both living in Market St which is where Eleanor was living when she married witnesses my Eleanor & her husband Charles Trowsdale; so could Charles have had a brother Samuel? Have found a Samuel Hayter blacksmith having a son John baptised in Windlesham in 1815 [not far from Warfield where John was born].
[5] Marriage of a John Joseph Hayter - father Charles Hayter carpenter 1847 St Mary's Paddington to Cecelia Ann Lawrence.

Lots of threads that need sorting, pulling together & some discarded. Many thanks for your help.

Josey

[josey]

First wife, m. 1808, an  Elizabeth Spilman, marriage in Marylebone.

The marriage was on 9 Apr 1808 & there is a burial of an Elizabeth Hayter in Marylebone on 9 Jun 1808, unfortunately no age.

[MonicaL]

Not a long marriage then for John Hayter's likely first wife...

I can't see anything so far to help you determine whether Charles Haytor married, as some trees have, an Ann Sheridan Dick or an Ann Dunevan. Could there have been two Charles Hayter's, one a smith and the other a carpenter?

Added: Where is there a reference to Eleanor's father having his mother's maiden name of Stephenson as his middle name?

Monica

[josey]

Added: Where is there a reference to Eleanor's father having his mother's maiden name of Stephenson as his middle name?

No reference that I can find. I think the Charles Stephenson Hayter family were a bit more upmarket than mine.

I think all I feel fairly confident about is that John Hayter the landlord/victualler born Warfield Berkshire was Charles the father of Eleanor's brother [possibly another brother Samuel blacksmith from Charles daughter Ann's marriage but of course Charles & Samuel may not have been related]. I have emailed the owner of the tree you found & will await a response & evidence of the baptism/s & marriage/s stated there.  The Charles in that family tree was born in Wallop & the Samuel died young. I will find out how the Warfield parish registers can be seen.

Hayter seems not an uncommon name in Hampshire, Wiltshire & Dorset, so certainly possible there are quite a few Charles among them. The 1839 death may or may not eliminate one or help the research in another way. I have not found a reference to the Ann Sheridan Dick marriage other than the ancestry tree. I had in the past assumed my Hayters were a Marylebone family, but the John place of birth shows not. There is only the one place it's mentioned though - the 1851 census.

At least I now feel confident in assuming that my Hayters were not related to the painters 

[MonicaL]

Found now a reference to Charles Stevenson Hayter, who died young. This lets you close to the door hopefully to that line...

http://archive.org/stream/visitationofengl33howa/visitationofengl33howa_djvu.txt - as imaged below from the link:

From a letter dated " December 19 . 1S19."

=Martha Stevenson, dau. of Thomas Stevenson, and Mary his wife ; born 8 April, bapt. at St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, Westminster, 2 May 1762; married at St. George's, Hanover Square, London, 15 July 1788; died 7 April 1805. Portrait in oils by her husband, at West Wratting Place CO. CatJibridge, in the possession of IFalter Louis Bazaine Havter.

Charles Stevenson Hayter, born 22 April, bapt. at St. Paul's, Covent Garden, London, 13 May 1789; died 11 December 1801.

Monica