Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819

[pollyhow]

Hi Looby

I have been out all day today and have just started to read your latest posting. I looked at the map of the Kilmarnock area – what a wonderful map. So clever of you to find it. I am not going to study it now or read any more of your posting as I couldn’t give it my whole attention. I am rather tired after a busy day and it's now 10pm. Tomorrow my mind will be fresher.

Thank you so much for this help. I’ll get back.

Polly

[pollyhow]

Hi Looby

I have now had time to mull over your latest postings. I really enjoyed looking at the map of the area around Kilmarnock. I noticed the River Irvine and wondered if this was where Marion and Andrew McEwin got the second Christian name of their son George. I have only seen George’s middle name spelt “Irving” however George himself did have a son (also called George) who had two middle names “Irvine Woodburn.” So maybe Irvine is one of those names that can vary a bit in the spelling.

You made a good point about the possibility that John Woodburn could have been working for George Woodburn. Ralstonhill was important enough to be on the map, unlike Cottage Inn where John and Lilly Woodburn lived.

I did a bit of a search in ScotlandsPeople for the marriage of John and Lilly/Lillias. Do you think their marriage could be the following record?

05/12/1824 – John Woodburn – Lilies McSkimming – Symington (Ayr)   /Ayr

I looked for children for them and only two came up (from FamilySearch):

Margaret Woodburn – Christening place: Kilmarnock, Ayr – Birthdate: 09 Jan 1826 – Birthplace: Kilmarnock, Ayr – Father: John Woodburn – Mother: Lillias Mcskimming

Jean Woodburn – Christening date: 28 Aug 1831 – Christening place: Kilmarnock, Ayr – Birth date: 12 August 1831 – Father: John Woodburn – Mother: Lillias Mcskimming

I was hoping to find a listing for these daughters in John & Lilly's 1841 census record, but no such luck. These daughters weren’t listed in their record.

At first I had been interested in the child Jean Woodburn. Jean is a variant of “Jessie” and this may have linked to the Jessie Woodburn who lived at Grange Street with Marion in 1841. I thought that maybe John and Lilly may have been related to Jessie Woodburn at Grange Street and they had named their child after her. But after not finding a Jean or Jessie amongst their children I went off the idea.

About Marion naming a son John after her father – well unfortunately this isn’t quite so clear when you consider that Andrew McEwin’s father (and brother) were also called John. The “Woodburn” part is definitely understandable since Woodburn was Marion’s maiden name.

I have seen that 1841 record for John Woodburn, shoemaker with wife Mary. At first I wondered if they could be Marion’s parents. I searched for other census records for them and their children. There is an 1841 record that could be their son John:

1841 census – Kirktonholm, Kilmarnock, Ayrshire – John Woodburn, 25, shoemaker journeyman; Margaret Woodburn, 25; John Woodburn, 5; Cathrine Woodburn, 4; and Robert Woodburn, 6m. All born Ayrshire.

However all this doesn’t solve the riddle of what happened to John Woodburn and Mary Brown. After a fruitless search to find the answer to this I now think that they died before the 1841 census and their deaths were never recorded. I have read that the old parish death and burial records were the most sparsely records kept, and many parishes did not bother to record these events because there was no requirement to do so.

Maybe we’ll never find proof of Marion’s birth and parents, but I have enjoyed the search.

Polly

[pollyhow]

Hello Looby

I am wondering if you think this could be the grave of the Jessie and Willie Woodburn in Marion’s 1841 census record:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=woodburn&GSiman=1&GScid=1974430&GRid=128419482&
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=woodburn&GSiman=1&GScid=1974430&GRid=128419562&

I note the website shows that Jean Woodburn was married to David Woodburn who was quite a bit older than her. Maybe David Caldwell was living elsewhere at the time of the 1841 census. I note there was a David Caldwell living in Perth in 1841 (address 51 George Inn) – his occupation was EICS – there are a couple of others at this address who also have EICS for their occupation (whatever EICS means - do you know )

I am thinking that David Woodburn could be the son of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell (who I mentioned one other time), and Janet Caldwell could be the Jess Woodburn (aged 60) living at Mosdale, Dalmellington, Ayshire at the time of the 1841 census.

Children of David Woodburn & Janet Caldwell were:

22 Oct 1798 - Ann Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
12 Apr 1801 – Agnes Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
20 Apr 1802 – John Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr
11 Mar 1805 – David Woodburn – Parish: Dalmellington, Ayr

Willie Caldwell Woodburn (on the grave inscription) looks like she was born a Woodburn. Maybe she was David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell’s daughter and her birth was not recorded in the parish registers? I see there is a Willie C Woodburn in the 1851 census (sorry if I have mentioned all this before ).

I can’t guess what the relationship is to Archibald Woodburn. FamilySearch has the following birth/christening record for him:

Name:     Archibald Woodburn
Christening Date:   11 Aug 1801
Christening Place:   Galston, Ayr, Scotland
Birth Date:   03 Aug 1801
Father's Name:   John Woodburn
Mother's Name:   Janet Sellars

It’s all a bit of a muddle I know

Polly

[loobylooayr]

Hi Polly,

These pesky Woodburns are giving you the runaround .
The first grave looks to be the grave of the father and mother of the 2 children on the 1851 Census who were born in India. David Woodburn born 1805 was the brother of the Willie Woodburn and perhaps Jessie Woodburn the women at Grange Street in 1841 . I have also wondered if Jessie was perhaps his wife?? Margaret Grier who is on the Census too at Grange Street is a Woodburn sister.

Second grave is Willie C Woodburn  daughter of David Woodburn and Janet/Jessie Caldwell.

Jess Woodburn on the 1841 is Janet Caldwell living with her daughter Agnes and her husband John McMillan.

I'm intrigued with Archibald Woodburn being on the headstone. There is obviously a family connection .

Still working on this for you Polly, just not had a lot of time today.

I hate brick walls 

I'm unsure of the significance of Marion working for these 2 Woodburn women. I think it's possible their is a link...... but how far back??   Jessie, Willie and their siblings appear to be a bit further up the ladder than Marion.

Mudding the water more is this lady Mary Ann Woodburn - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTK5-M9B

She is born 21st Jan 1821 at West Kilbride to Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson. I can find little trace of Woodburns in West Kilbride at this time. I do wonder if this couple and John Woodburn& Mary Brown were connected.

This is certainly a puzzle,
Looby

[pollyhow]

Hi again Looby

I too have wondered if Jessie at Grange Street in 1841 was David Woodburn’s wife. The gravestone shows Jean Woodburn, David's wife, was born in 1819. FamilySearch shows his wife’s name to be Jane Walker. I think Jane, Janet, Jean and Jessie are variants of the same name.

I have been doing some more searching on David Woodburn & Janet Caldwell’s family since I last wrote. It seems a number of their family were military types. The son John (born 20 Apr 1802) was killed in 1841 when fighting insurgents in Afghanistan. There’s a nice church plaque for him at this website:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1954655

Another website added this information about him:

“John Woodburn was the son of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell. He was born 20 Apr 1803 near Dalmellington, Ayrshire, Scotland. His father was Factor of the Craigengillan Estate. John enlisted as a Cadet in the Bengal Army in 1820.”

Regarding Archibald Woodburn, the nationalarchives.gov.uk website have “Letters to David Woodburn, mainly about family matters, from his uncle Archibald Woodburn (1801- ), Madras Army 1818-45” which I don’t think is possible to access online. I gather from this that David Woodburn (born 1805) was the nephew of Archibald Woodburn in spite of the fact that Archibald (the uncle) was only a couple of years older.

Interesting to see there was another Woodburn baby born in West Kilbride around the time Marion was born.  Robert Woodburn could be a brother of John, do you think? It may be an interesting lead to follow…

I appreciate the time you are putting into this Looby.

Polly

[Joyful]

Hi Polly & Looby

To further muddy the waters there was an unnamed female born in 1820 to a John Woodburn no mother named.
I am convinced that the Woodburn families are all connected BUT there is difference in status so it
must be well back
Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson had the following children that I can see:
Alexander b 1819
Mary Ann  b 1821
William     b  1822 mother is named as Jane which could still be Jean
James      b   1824
George    b   1826
Jean        b   1828
John        b   1831
David      b    1833
Thomas  b     1835
John        b    1838 first one must have died

You've probably seen all this but thought I would post anyway, I'm really intrigued by this
mystery.

Joy

[loobylooayr]

Hi Polly, Ian, Joy et all 

Polly another mention for Captain John Woodburn killed in Afghanistan in 1841 at Dalmellington Parish Church
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-post-38683.html

Interesting family - definitely further up the social scale than your Marion (no offence  )

Archibald Woodburn uncle of above is born in Galston which is interesting. Galston is about 5 miles from Kilmarnock and is close to the stamping ground of Ian's Woodburns.

We are chipping the brick Polly, a little at a time .

Looby

[pollyhow]

Hello Looby and Joy

Thanks for that info, Joy, about the children of Robert Woodburn and Jean Gibson. I didn’t realise they had so many. I only managed to find three in FamilySearch.

I have done some searching today on this Robert and Jean Woodburn family. I had hoped to find that they had other children in West Kilbride but I found the others were born elsewhere.

I then decided to do a search to see if there were other Woodburns who married in Kilmaurs Parish which, as you know, was where John Woodburn and Mary Brown were married, and I found two marriages – one, of course, was for John and Mary, and the other was for - guess who? - yes, Robert Woodburn and "Jane" Gibson. Both couples were married in 1818.

Thinking the men could have been brothers I found in FamilySearch a suitable-looking birth record for Robert Woodburn. It didn’t say he was born/baptised in Kilmaurs, but in Loudoun. So I searched in ScotlandsPeople for children born to his parents and found birth records for him and his siblings but unfortunately there wasn’t a John amongst them.

So, disappointed, I decided to search for all Woodburns born in Loudoun between the years 1786 and 1801 (with the marriage date of 1818 in mind) and three new records came up (yes, only three. There can't have been many Woodburn families living in the Loudoun area at that time ). The good thing is - one of these records was for a John Woodburn.

Name:   John Woodburn
Birth date:   7 Aug 1796
Parent names:   James Woodburn/Margaret Brown
Parish:   Loudoun
City/County:   Ayr


The two other records belonged to his siblings:

Name:   Andrew Woodburn
Birth date:   20 Jan 1788
Parent names:   James Woodburn/Margaret Brown
Parish:   Loudoun
City/County:   Ayr

Name:   Janet Woodburn
Birth date:   26 Feb 1792
Parent names:   James Woodburn/Margaret Brown
Parish:   Loudoun
City/County:   Ayr

John may have had further siblings born outside my date search range. I may go back and check that. But I am fairly confident that this is the birth record for John Woodburn who married Mary Brown, although I’m treating it with caution. Anyway, it was thanks to your hint about Robert and Jean Woodburn, Looby, that helped me find the record. So, thanks for that.

Maybe it is possible to find a little more yet about this birth family of John Woodburn’s. But that will have to wait for another day. Meanwhile it’s time for bed.

Polly

PS: It definitely crossed my mind, Looby, about my side of the Woodburn clan being of a much humbler mould than the captains and majors of David Woodburn and Janet Caldwell’s family. Makes you wonder how Marion came to be living with them in 1841, although I see she was a mere servant in the household. If only we knew the real story.

[loobylooayr]

Hi folks.

Unfortunately there are a few Woodburn families living and having babies ( most of them John  ) in Loudoun at this time. Perhaps Ian will be able to give us some pointers as he has researched some of them!

Well done Polly and Joy with following up Robert Woodburn and Jane/Jean Gibson - I would agree it would seem very possible that the two Woodburn men marrying in Kilmaurs are related.

Robert and Jean Woodburn appear to be living in Soulis Street Kilmarnock on 1841 Census.

as transcribed -

Woodburn  Robt           M      40         Agricultural Labourer        born Ayrshire
Woodburn  Jean            F      40                                                      "
Woodburn James          M      15         Agricultural Labourer               "
Woodburn John            M        3                                                      "

I think this is the couple on 1851 Census (they have aged more than 10 years but bear in mind please that 1841 Census ages can be unreliable )

Campbell Street, Riccarton Kilmarnock 1851
Woodburn  Robert    Head       57         Ag Labourer                     born Ayrshire, Kilmarnock   
Woodburn Jean        Wife        58                                                born Ayrshire, Saltcoats
Woodburn John        Son         12          Scholar                           born  Ayrshire, Kilmarnock

There is a Jane Gibson born in Stevenson Ayrshire on 27 Sep 1892  (Saltcoats would fall under Stevenson Parish) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYCM-2VT   this could  fit with above Jean Woodburn.

Lets hope Robert conveniently died after 1855 - his parents names should be included on Death cert and might lead you to John Woodburn who marries Mary Brown.
It would certainly seem that the 2 men and 2 women could all be farm labourers who met in Kilmaurs area.....married then moved on to West Kilbride for work.....and ultimately one if not both ended up in Kilmarnock......but throwing a spanner in the works there are births elsewhere to robert and Jane/Jean.
Alexander Woodburn  birth 26 March 1819  christened 6 Apr 1819  Dreghorn, Ayrshire.
Mary Ann  Woodburn birth  3  Jan 1821      christened 21 Jan 1821  West Kilbride, Ayrshire
William Woodburn     birth  9 Nov 1822       christened 8  Dec 1822  Kilmaurs
James Woodburn       birth  16 June 1824    christened 27 June 1824  Craigie by Kilmarnock
George Woodburn     birth   9 Nov 1826       christened 24 Dec 1826   Craigie by Kilmarnock
Jean Woodburn         birth 14 Dec 1828       christened 28 Dec 1828   Craigie by Kilmarnock
John Woodburn         birth 22 Feb 1831       christened 27 Mar 1831         "           "
David Woodburn       birth  28 Mar 1833      christened 7 Apr 1833           "            "
Thomas Woodburn    birth  12 May 1835      christened 24 May 1835        "            "
John Woodburn         birth  26 Aug 1838                                             Kilmarnock
A lot of births! There could have been more in between who died at birth and I don't think all these children survived for long.

The family have spent some time at Craigie (small hamlet/ lots of farms) -  which is where John Woodburn married to Lilias McSkimming gives as his place of birth on 1851 Census.   

Looking at the above children of Robert and Jean - if and it's a big IF the Jane Gibson born in Stevenson is this Jean Woodburn :
1st daughter - Mary Ann -      Jane Gibson's mother is a Mary
2nd son -   William -              Jane Gibson' father is William
Could we be looking for an Alexander Woodburn and a Jane/ Jean as parents of Robert?? Or would that just be too good to be true!

Looby