Moores of Norwich Gypsys ??

[frederickay]

It has been mentioned to me in a family anecdote that our family of Moores from Norwich were gypsy folk . My gt gt grandmother married Abraham Moore . H e had previously been married to Rosetta Livock ?
 I do not have his birth cert but have a memorial card . I have been in contact with reletives of his first marriage but there has been no mention of Abraham being a gypsy . He certainly did not travel once he was in London  as I have census etc . Any hints as to how I find out if there is truth in this story ? Thanks Fred

[suzard]

It doesn't look like the Moore's were travellers/gypsies
In my family there are old tales of them being gypsies/travellers - but that is not substantionated -often these ideas came about becuse the family moved town/county -even today in my family when I moved from Derbyshire to glamorgan some of the older family members said "it's the gypsy genes"

There is no evidence of the Moore family being travellers/gypsies - but maybe the family held this belief as possibly the family moved from Norwich to London

1871
13 Russell St Heigham Norfolk
Robert Moore Head M 49 Tanner
Hannah wife 48
ABRAHAM son S 21 Tanner
Sarah daughter S 23 silk factory hand
George son 11 scholar
Emma granddaughter 5
Elizabeth granddaughter 2
ROSETTA LOVICK Boarder S 20 Factory Hand

all b Norwich
RG10 1822 24 43

will post other census shortly

Suz

[suzard]

1851
Heigham St Norwich Norfolk
Robert moore head M 29 Tanner
Hannah wife 28 wever
Robert son 8
Hannah daughter 6
Sarah daughter 5
ABRAHAM son 2
all b Norwich Heigham Norfolk
HO107 1816 414 25

1861
4 Maces Buildings Heigham Norwich
Robert Moore Head M 29 tanner
Hannah wife 37 wever
Robert son S 18 shoemaker
Hannah daughter 16 general servant
ABRAHAM son 12 scholar
George son 1
all b Norwich
RG9 1220 116 6

1871 previously posted

1881
4 Star Place bermondsey
Robert moore Head M 60 Tanner Norwich Norfolk
Hannah wife 59 Norwich
ABRAHAM son Married 30 Tanner Norwich
George son S 21 Tanner Norwich
ROSETTA daughteril Married 29 Norwich
Emma daughter 15 norwich
Elizabeth daughter 12 norwich
Abraham grandson 8 Norwich
Emma Granddaughter 6 Surrey bermondsey
Rebecca Granddaughter 4   ditto
Arthur Grandson 1               ditto
RG11 560 20 36

so you can see there are no signs of the family being gypsies - it seems Abraham , some siblings and his parents moved to London together -possibly for better work - at Star Place in 1881 othr head of households had the occupation "tanner"

Suz

[frederickay]

Hi Thank you for that very full reply . I will talk again to my contact who may I say is or has been a traveller and still has immediate family who are .
 In conversation he has said both the Moores and our Jutsum  "Henry Green " in previous posts i have had on here were of Gypsy family .
 As you have pointed out with the census noted  it dosnt seem likely. I will get back with his thoughts. Thanks Fred

[rob g]

Hi. Fred. From the research done by suz. I don't think they are gypsies. One. Romany folks did not stay in one place long term. So could not learn a trade.? Ie. Shoe maker. Tanner. Weaving. They were mostly hawkers. Seasonal farm workers. Tin smiths. Horse.& general dealers. We still get people coming into the Romany lifestyle who are. Gorgios.non travellers. Maybe they camped for a while? But I doubt they are gypsies. Having said that. The green family are a very old traveller clan. We camped with them. Many times. Years back. And there are/ were. Lots of Romany families around the Norwich area's. Rob

[frederickay]

Thank you Rob G . I agree. With the censuses appearing to prove the Moores I am connected to had trades and appeared quite settled it is highly unlikely .
 Now the Greens who were also mentioned as Gypsy in family lore
 .. Well i cant even find what happened to  the Henry Green who married my gt grand aunt Frances Jutsum  . Apparently he was a bare fisted pugilist .
He was meant .... again by family lore ... to have been hung around 1891=95 aged in his late 20s.. This was for the manslaughter of a shop keeper in a robbery gone wrong .
Two members of the family but from different branches have both told me the same story ,but even with Valdas expert  assistance I haven't found anything to verify this tale .
 I guess with the name Green it is unlikely i will be able to prove anything about it . it is interesting that i have had titbits that always have that little bit of truth . If i live long enough the truth might prevail.... eventually . Thanks for your input . It was very insightful. Fred ,

[woodyinwilts]

I heard the same story. Also that Abraham Moore (b.1849) was known to all as "Pony Moore". Told to me by his great-grandson who was told by his grandmother Rebecca Jane Moore (Pony Moore's daughter).

Not sure if the Gypsy link was directly through the Moores or by marriage

[frederickay]

So Woody if you heard it from Rebecca’s family she was Abraham Moore sister . Abraham Moore went on to Marry my gt gt grandmother Charlotte Sophia Jutsum née Russell . So I am guessing we are related by marriage . Charlotte known as Sophia lived with Ambraham in Neckringer Road and Canon Munane Road in Bermondsey . Did you ever hear family stories of them . Or the scandal of Sophia and George ( her first husband ) daughter Fanny and her life story . Love to hear from you . Fred .
Charlotte and George Jutsum ( then Abraham Moore )
Alice Sophia and John Jennings
Lillian Ada and William Williams
Mollie Elizabeth and Jim Wharton .
Me .

[Talacharn]

Rosetta Teale Livock . mmn /   
Jan-Mar 1851 . Norwich . Volume 13 . Page 310

I wondered if Lovick/Livock was a variation of Lovell which is a traveller name, but at that time in Norfolk there are many baptisms with both spellings. From the GRO you could buy an image £3.00 of the birth registration. That would give you her mother’s name, though probably illegitimate so not her father, then find her grandparents names. Why Teale? If this is correct, how could she be Abraham’s sister?