James Gillies

[Forfarian]

My grandmother Jeanie Wyllie was from Ochiltree. She is listed as Jeanie on the record of marriage I found but my father's marriage certificate lists her as Jane.

Thanks. She isn't one of my Wyllies then.

I used to be a bookseller but I sold my business and retired 4 years ago. I am guessing yo may have been a customer or I have met you at a Book Fair?

I was a customer, and even managed to visit your shop once, and I have certainly seen your stalls at more than one book fair - though I now ration myself to a maximum of one book fair a year for the sake of my bank balance and the space in the house.

[Annette7]

Afraid this one has got me beat!

Robert Gillies consistently says he was born in Aberdeenshire and the latest census actually specifies the place Buchan.    Can find no trace of him.

Joseph Gillies and Ann Asher - whom he gives as his parents when he married - can find no children baptised to this couple, nor can I find a marriage for them or find them on census.

John Gillies and Anne McBeth/McBain (there are 2 marriage/banns entries for a John Gillies and an Anne - one gives her name as McBean 19/6/1840 Drainie, and the other as McBeth one day later, 20/6/1840 Elgin.   I feel sure this is the same couple.  In 1851 they have 2 sons - William 9 and John 5 - cannot find baptisms for either.    As to the Robert bp.1854 Drainie - I think he must have died as in 1861 at Drainie, John and Anne just have eldest son William.

I've also searched for Robert under surname Asher - it's an odd quirk in Scotland that children born illegitimately often have the surname of their natural father.   Can find nothing under Asher either.

Quite what the key is here I don't know - Robert seems to appear out of nowhere when he marries as I cannot find him on census before then.    However, the one consistency is that he gives he birthplace as Aberdeenshire, the most recent census specifying Buchan!

Sorry I can't be of more help.   The farm where John Gillies was working in 1891 was named Rosebrae Farm, Bothy.

Annette

[Forfarian]

I can cope with McBeth <-> McBean and even John -> James, but Joseph -> John and Asher -> McBean seems to me to be a change too far.

LIBINDX http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp has a record for Robert Gillies, born c. 1854, parents Joseph Gillies and Ann Asher, married Ann Cameron 1874 in Lhanbryde, died 8 December 1945 at Ashgrove, Dalmunach, Carron and buried at Lossiemouth with his wife, who died on 7 March 1946 in Lhanbryde. There's a death notice in the Elgin Courant on 14 December 1945.

According to this, Robert lived at Coral Peel, which is a couple of miles south-east-ish of Lossiemouth.
See http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1085608 and
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/179085

I am fairly sure that I remember discussion of Coral Peel in a genealogy forum somewhere, somewhen, but I can't remember where or when!

It's not far from Rosebrae http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1764 or from Waterton www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1866 where Robert and family were living in 1881.

She is listed as Jeanie on the record of marriage I found but my father's marriage certificate lists her as Jane.

Jane/Jean/Jean(n)ie are totally interchangeable. (You will also be told that Jane/Jean/Janet are also interchangeable, but in my experience this is rare. Janet is interchangeable with Jessie, and I have come across more families with both a Jane/Jean(ie) and a Janet/Jessie than I have Jane/Jean(ie)s who were also called Janet.)

I now speculate.

Robert says he was born in Buchan, which is rather vague, covering several parishes including Fraserburgh and Peterhead. This area was a stronghold of the Episcopal Church. The New Statistical Account of Peterhead, for instance, says that there were in the parish 1400 to 1500 members of the Episcopalian congregation, while the population according to the 1841 census was 6,695 (probably un under-estimate because a significant number of parishioners would have been absent in connection with fishing).

So maybe the reason why no-one has found a record of Joseph Gillies and Ann Asher is because they belonged to an Episcopalian congregation somewhere in Buchan whose boundaries did not match those of the Church of Scotland parishes, so their marriage and Robert's baptism are not in the OPRs? And could the family's absence from the census be because they were following the fishing?

[Benny Gillies]

Hello again
I am confused about Robert Gillies you mention being born Aberdeenshire.

A good number of years ago I had a brief foray into my roots and at that time I sent away for extracts of the entries in Old Parish Register which I have now found.

I have a copy of the entry (Parish of Drainie) for the birth of Robert Gillies: "Robert lawful son of John Gillies Lossiemouth and his wife Ann Macbeth was born March 7th and baptised March 8th 1854 Witnesses Mrs Milven or Miller? Midwife and Mary MacBeth Lossiemouth"
The confusing thing here is that Robert's marriage to Ann Cameron states his mother as Ann Asher (deceased) and Father Joseph Gillies Plougman (deceased)

I also have an entry for (Parish of Elgin )the marriage of John Gillies farm servant in the parish of Elgin to Anne Macbeth in the Parish of Drainie. Married 20/06/1840 Parish Church of Elgin.

I am wodering if John and Joseph are the same person? It doesn't however explain the discrepancy with Ann MacBeth and Ann Asher.

Glad of all your help so far. Thanks
Benny

[Benny Gillies]

I have just found a note that I made after speaking to a late aunt a number of years ago. She told me that Robert Gillies was brought up by an aunt and his mother was dead at the time of his marriage. Do you think think Ann Asher could be the aunt and the entry on his marriage record could be wrong???

[Forfarian]

My immediate reaction to all this is that there must be two different Robert Gillieses, one the son of Joseph G and Ann Asher, and the other the son of John G and Ann MacBeth.

There is a triple discrepancy: father's given name, mother's surname and place of birth.

Generally speaking, marriage records are the most accurate way of finding out who someone's parents were. Yes, they can occasionally make a mistake with their parents' names if they have not been brought up by their own, married, parents.

It is very important to realise that the OPRs in Edinburgh do not contain every birth/baptism or proclamation/marriage that ever occurred. There are all sorts of reasons why a baptism was not recorded, and estimates of the proportion that went unrecorded vary from 25% to 50% depending on whom you speak to.

Therefore, just because Robert G, son of John G and Ann Macbeth, is the only matching person in the OPRs, you cannot safely assume that he is the right one without any supporting evidence, especially when he tells you that his parents are Joseph G and Ann Asher.

Ann MacBeath, widow of John Gillies, labourer, died in Lossiemouth in 1888 aged 67. Therefore she did not die when her son Robert was very young. If your late aunt is right about your Robert being brought up by an aunt and that his mother was dead by the time of his marriage, then this is evidence against your Robert being the son of John G and Ann MacBeth. Unless he was lying, of course, in which case all bets are off.

There are one or two details which must be on the marriage certificate and which could be very useful. First, does it say that Joseph Gillies was deceased? Second, how, exactly, does it give Ann Asher's name - is she 'Ann Gillies M S Asher' or is she 'Ann Asher'? Third, does the marriage certificate say that Ann Asher was deceased?

[loobylooayr]

Hi Benny,
Just joining in here to say I agree completely with Forfarian's post.
I think you need to concentrate on the info provided by  Robert when he married, he may have given some wrong details  , especially if both parents died when he was young but it is at the moment your only documented evidence of who his parents were.
Knowing if Ann Asher is recorded as Ann Gillies m.s. Asher or just Ann Asher on Robert's marriage cert. is important.

I have found a death of a Joseph Gillies born circa 1828 at Rothes Morayshire in 1858 -making him approx. 30.
I struggled to find this man on the 1851 Census - but finally think I located him in Bellie where he is boarding with people called Geddes . Note that this man is called Joseph Golish 

 GEDDES   John   Head   W   M   63   Chelsea Pensioner    Banffshire - Bellie       
  GEDDES   George   Son   U   M   35   Salmon Fisher    Banffshire - Bellie       
 FINLAY   Elspet   Servnt   U   F   23   House Servant    Morayshire - Duffus       
 GOLISH   Joseph   Boardr   U   M   22   Salmon Fisher    Morayshire - Rothes       

I wonder if Golish is a mistranscription or a mispronunciation of the name Gillies. Incidentially I have also come across the name Gillies recorded as Glass. I also note that this man is a salmon fisher in 1851 not a ploughman (as per Robert's marriage cert) but he could have been trying a new occupation! His birthplace is Rothes which obviously is rural, so he probably had a agricultural background.

So apologies if all this with the salmon fisher is a red herring - pardon the pun. But I thought I would draw him to your attention .

Looby
   

[Annette7]

I am confused about Robert Gillies you mention being born Aberdeenshire.

If we've found the right Robert Gillies and Annie on census he just gives 'Aberdeenshire' on 1881/1891/1901 census and the most recent says 'Buchan, Aberdeenshire' so only stating what he detailed as his birthplace.

Because of the complexities of this thread re. this Robert's parents, no sighting of a son James (only a John born in the right time) have you located James and his wife on the census in 1911 to confirm his birthplace?  If not, I think you need to do this as it looks like we need to dot all the 'i's' and cross all the 't's' on this one to ensure we have the right family.

Annette

[Forfarian]

Looby's find is interesting, because he's the first possible sighting of a Joseph Gillies as potential father.

I also noticed that in the household of my great-great-aunt Grace or Grizel Cruickshank, widow of James Stephen, farmer at Coxton, Lhanbryde in 1871, there is a Robert Gillies, farm servant, aged 14, born Rothes.

So curiosity got the better of me and I looked up the 1874 marriage certificate, from which I see that Robert Gillies gave his age as 19 and that he was residing at Coxton, Lhanbryde at the time of his marriage. He gave his father's name as Joseph Gillies, ploughman, deceased, and his mother as Ann Gillies MS Asher, deceased.

So we have Joseph Gillies dying in Rothes in 1858, and Robert Gillies, born Rothes, living in Lhanbryde in 1871 and Robert Gillies marrying in Lhanbryde in 1874.

There's a Joseph Gillies, aged 15, an ag lab at Earnside, Alves, in the 1841 census. His age is a bit out, but could it be 'your' Joseph, I wonder?

Also took a look at the death of Joseph Gillies in 1858. There are some interesting details.

First, he was unmarried. So if he was Robert's father, Robert was illegitimate, which would explain the absence of records in the OPRs, but would suggest that Robert was being less than strictly truthful when he registered his marriage. This is pretty common practice to conceal illegitimacy.

Second, he died at Hillylands of Inchberry, which is the northern extremity of the parish of Rothes, lying on the left bank of the River Spey. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3155

Third, his parents were James Gillies, ag lab, and Anne Riddoch, deceased. Not Anne Gillies MS Riddoch. Therefore Joseph was illegitimate, because his parents were not married to one another.

Fourth, he was buried in Dipple kirkard, not Rothes itself, or Dundurcas. Dipple is the closest burial ground to Inchberry.

Fifth, the place of burial was certified by William Gillies 'who had charge of the funeral'. There is just one Williiam Gillies of suitable age in the 1851 and 1861 censuses of Rothes. In 1851 the exact address isn't given, and William is 75, but in 1861 it is Inchberry Hill Farmhouse, and William is a widower, aged 82, born Rothes.

Sixth, the informant was John Gillies, uncle. The household of the above William Gillies includes William's son John, who in 1861 is described as a widower, aged 54. In 1851 he was widowed, aged 40.

William Gillies and Helen Clark had at least two sons, both born in the parish of Rothes: James in 1805 and John in 1808.

James Gillies, aged 55, with wife Elspet and a numerous family, is listed in a house on Hill of Inchberry in 1861, described as pauper and salmon fisher. In 1851 he is described as a labourer with one acre of land.

So pulling that all together I deduce that Joseph Gillies, being the son of James Gillies, was the illegitimate grandson of William Gillies. The family home was at Inchberry. In spite of what Robert says on his marriage certificate, I speculate that Robert himself was also illegitimate, and born in Rothes just before the start of civil registration.

That still leaves open the question why Robert consistently said in later censuses that he was born in Aberdeenshire. Was he trying to distance himself from the Gillies family in Inchberry, and if so, why? Or have I got the complete wrong end of a tempting stick?

I think that if I were you my next step would be to take myself off to the National Records of Scotland in General Register House, Edinburgh, or the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and read through the digitised minutes of the Rothes Kirk Session in the hope that the Session noticed, and took as dim a view of the arrivals of Joseph and Robert as it did of the arrivals of several of my relatives in Rothes in the 19th century.

Then I would go downstairs to the Scotland's People Centre and look up the deaths of every Robert Gillies/Gillis/Gillice etc born within a couple of years on 1854, to see if the son of John G and Ann MacBeath can be eliminated as a possible candidate. If he died somewhere and somewhen else, they you know for certain that he can't be 'your' Robert. Note that not finding his death doesn't prove that he is yours - it could mean that he died outwith Scotland.

I am now beginning vaguely to recall doing some work on this Gillies or Gillis or Gillice family (spellings vary!) many years ago. I will see if I can remember when, why, for whom, and where I put the resulting information.