Old Swinford - Thomas Webb and Ann Pearson - 1808 marriage

[Eastbury]

Hi Phil
Re Thomas Webb baptism at Upton on Severn in 1781. Below is the info from the parish register:-

The only Webb baptised in 1781 was on 12 Oct 1781,  Joseph son of Thomas and Mary. On 19 July 1782 Thomas son of Nancy Webb was baptised. No father mentioned.

Jack

[Philnut]

Re Thomas Webb baptism at Upton on Severn in 1781. Below is the info from the parish register:-

The only Webb baptised in 1781 was on 12 Oct 1781,  Joseph son of Thomas and Mary. On 19 July 1782 Thomas son of Nancy Webb was baptised. No father mentioned.

Hi Jack,
Thanks for this, can you tell me where this was found please. I was intending to visit the "Hive" in Worcester to look through the archives, to try and find Thomas Webb's birth, but if you have already looked there then is no point in me doing the same, it's a long way from Sutton Coldfield.
I have since found Thomas and his wife, Anne, are both buried at St Mary's church in Longdon, just out side Upton upon Severn. So his baptism could have been here also. Although he was born about 1781 he could have been baptised a few years later either at St Mary's or in Upton itself. Sometimes the parents held back to baptise more than one child at a time.
Thanks again,
Phil

[Eastbury]

Hi Phil

I was at the Worcs Archive at the Hive, looking at the Parish records, so the only Thomas Webb baptised at Upton on Severn in 1781/82 was as previously mentioned, the illegitimate son of Nancy Webb baptised 19 July 1782.

I will send you a personal message in the next couple of days which I hope will help you in your quest for a Thomas Webb born somewhere in Worcestershire in about 1781, who was a carpenter in Longdon Heath in the Upton-upon-Severn parish at the time of the 1841 census. If you don’t have any original documents that confirm you ancestor was a soldier and was born in Upton-on-Severn and you are relying on an on-line search like Jomot I would discard that information. In the Upton-upon-Severn parish register Thomas Webb was a carpenter at the time of all of his children's baptisms. If Thomas had been a soldier the parish register would have said so.

Emma Webb’s baptism shows her father Thomas was a farmer of Hook Common, Upton-upon-Severn and she seems to be the Emma Webb born Upton-upon-Severn with her mother Ann born Upton-upon-Severn (Farmer's wife) and three younger sisters born Mitcheldean on a farm in Mitcheldean, Gloucestershire on the 1851 census.

I would like to think that your Thomas was baptised at one of the parishes in the Upton area, but his baptism and marriage may be brick walls that are going to take a while to fall.

He was not the Thomas Webb who married Ann Thackwell by licence on 3rd October 1809 in the parish of Berrow as that one died a wealthy widower in 1830, and he had only one daughter Mrs Anna Merrott Stephens.

Jack

[Jomot]

If you don’t have any original documents that confirm you ancestor was a soldier and was born in Upton-on-Severn and you are relying on an on-line search like Jomot I would discard that information. In the Upton-upon-Severn parish register Thomas Webb was a carpenter at the time of all of his children's baptisms. If Thomas had been a soldier the parish register would have said so.

Just to clarify, I never said that he was a soldier, quite the opposite, I said that he was a carpenter.

Thomas is consistently described as a carpenter, not a soldier or FWK.   The service record of Thomas Webb of the 43rd Regiment suggests he was still serving abroad whilst at least some of these children were conceived / born.

I'm therefore pretty sure that these are two entirely different people.

He was not the Thomas Webb who married Ann Thackwell by licence on 3rd October 1809 in the parish of Berrow as that one died a wealthy widower in 1830, and he had only one daughter Mrs Anna Merrott Stephens.

I said that too

Any sign of an Ann Thackwell?

I cant find that marriage other than a newspaper report, but as he was described as Thomas Webb Jn Esq of Ledbury Herefordshire I very much doubt this is him. A quick google of Thomas Webb, Ledbury brings up the Will of Thomas Webb, Banker of Ledbury , Herefordshire. Date: 01 July 1837. Held by: The National Archives, Kew.

[Eastbury]

Hi Jomot

I did say I agreed with you to discard the reference to the Thomas Webb soldier. So on all points we seem to agree!

You will also agree that although he died on 18 April 1843 aged 62 he could have been in his 63rd year and so might have been born in 1780, somewhere in Worcestershire

Thomas wasn’t baptised at the Baptist church in Upton-on-Severn and unfortunately he didn’t leave a will proven in the Diocese of Worcester. There is however a monumental inscription that has been transcribed and is at the Worcs Archive it reads:-

“In memory of Thomas Webb late of Upton-on-Severn who died April 18th 1848* aged 62
I know my Redeemer liveth.           
Also Ann wife of the above who died March 10th 1850 aged 63 years.

* 1848’s a typo as his death was registered in 1843, as Phil mentioned.

The only parish records for baptisms circa 1781 and marriages after 1754, within a 5 mile radius of Upton upon Severn, which are not transcribed on FamilySearch or on the “Worcestershire Births, Marriages and Deaths” (BMD) database, are part of Pirton baptisms pre 1813 and Pirton is on the other side of the River Severn. I’ve certainly seen archive documents showing people owning lands on both sides of the river, but Pirton isn’t that close to it, so it’s a long shot, but worth a search, even if it is only to eliminate Pirton parish as the possible birthplace of Phil's Thomas Webb.

The Worcestershire BMD database currently has the following Thomas Webb baptisms:-
Kidderminster, Tenbury Wells and Feckenham (1780); Knightwick and Elmley Lovett (1781) and Ripple (only 3 miles from Upton, on the other side of the river) and Blockley (both 1782). The latter Thomas from Blockley is buried at Bushley, so he can be discarded. Pity because he left a will!

So Pirton and Ripple are “possibles” within the 5 mile radius and then there could be more Non Conformist records. Phil may have to look further afield.

There is no reference specifically to Thomas Webb in the full Worcestershire Archive paper catalogue and Thomas isn’t mentioned in Quarter Session records either.

Jack

[Jomot]

Hi Jack

Just read it back and I think I mentally placed the missing comma in the wrong place, making it read "[if] you are relying on an on-line search like Jomot, I would discard that".  Eats Shoots & Leaves & all that 

I'm still wondering about the Thomas Webb apprenticed in 1788 to Thomas Harmer, Carpenter, of Frampton on Severn, Gloucestershire.  I know its about 25 miles or so but as you say, if you remove the soldier from the picture we have nothing at all to say that Thomas was born in Upton - just that he was living there in 1841 and born *somewhere* in county. 

[Philnut]

Hi Jack and Jomot,

I have the service record for a Thomas Webb who joined the 43rd Regiment of Light Infantry on the 25th April 1805 aged 25 and it states he was born in Upton upon Severn. His occupation on joining is "Framework Knitter"; this of course would probably change.
I also have the death certificate of a Thomas Webb who died on 18th April 1843 aged 62 registered by his son Edwin Webb, my 2 x Great Grandfather. I have also found the grave of Thomas in Longdon, just outside Upton, which confirms these details of his death.
These are the facts as I know them but are they the same man? Unfortunately, I cannot attach the images I have, to show you the actual documents.
When I click on “attachments” nothing happens and when I click on “insert image all I get is the Meta symbols of “img][/img” placed in the text. I have attached images before on other threads but I am no longer able to do so.
I admire the tenacity of you both for spending the time to look?
Cheers
Phil

[Jomot]

I have the service record for a Thomas Webb who joined the 43rd Regiment of Light Infantry on the 25th April 1805 aged 25 and it states he was born in Upton upon Severn. His occupation on joining is "Framework Knitter"; this of course would probably change.

Why do you think his occupation would change?  Infantrymen were not taught trades, and most returned to their original occupation.  All of mine did, without exception.

I also have the death certificate of a Thomas Webb who died on 18th April 1843 aged 62 registered by his son Edwin Webb, my 2 x Great Grandfather. I have also found the grave of Thomas in Longdon, just outside Upton, which confirms these details of his death.

Presumably this gives his occupation as carpenter.

As Jack & I have both stated, the soldier & the carpenter are almost certainly not the same man.

It may not be connected, but if you want to look further into the Thomas Webb who was an apprentice carpenter at Frampton upon Severn, the details are here:

http://tinyurl.com/nkej5r5

[Eastbury]

Hi Phil - and Jomot

You have mentioned that Thomas the soldier's previous occupation was as a  framework knitter, so he may have lived and worked in Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, which was an important centre for the manufacture of stockings, and that Thomas believed he was born in the parish of Upton, but he wasn't baptised there, neither was your Thomas, the carpenter - UNLESS one of them was the illegitimate son of Nancy whose son Thomas Webb was baptised in 1782.

Jomot - The Gloucestershire on-line Archive catalogue gives basic info on the carpenter apprentice's indenture which mentions Thomas Webb was from Rodborough. I'll send you a pm about who you could ask to look at the indenture as the parent (s) are usually named.
Regards
Jack