Windy Hill Cemetery - Thoburns of Mallusk

[lmgnz]

Hi Callibaba

I distinctly remember seeing your Agnes only daughter of Joseph when Gilby and I were chasing up the family of Eleanor Barron. I had to go looking for her in my Ancestry tree and have found her and her husband John Adams who died 12 Jan 1879 at Ballinacard, Broughshane. I also have the daughter Isabella married to William Gourley.

I have added Agnes' father Joseph (b 1785 died 1835, wife's name unknown) to my tree as a sibling of Margaret Thoburn who married William Kelso. I don't remember if I have any evidence for that other than location and the Gourley marriage of Isabella. Gilby will be able to give more information.

That would make Joseph the son of David Thorburn( 1759-1802) and Janet Barron, and grandson of Eleanor Barron and Joseph Barron (1719-1792). It definitely makes sense for David to have had a son named Joseph after his own father so that is probably another reason I placed your Joseph in this family.

You are correct in that your Joseph is not the Joseph Thoburn of Mallusk who was also born 1759, and married Janet Bigger.

Again I may have linked these families together (I put Joseph b1759 as a brother of David also born abt 1759) incorrectly and would have to defer to Gilby on the proven relationships. Gilby's Barron family roots are in Roughfort so has a more detailed knowledge than I do. Our shared family is Wiley of Templepatrick, and Gilby's Wiley ancestor married Jane Barron of Roughfort, daughter of Joseph.

Gilby is currently working on a chart of how the Templepatrick Barron families link to those in Loughmourne in Larne, but this is based on recent yDNA tests and females such as Eleanor do not get a look in. I will ask Gilby where Eleanor links into the chart.

Cheers

Linda

[lmgnz]

Hi Callibaba

As far as I know I should not have any DNA link to the Thoburn family but I did look in my DNA matches last year and found a few with Thoburns, including one in the Adams family, in the William Maybin Adams line. Of course that may not be where the shared genes come from.  I am not sure but Gilby may also have had a Maybin family connection.

Cheers

Linda

[Gilby]

Hi Callibaba,

I don’t have Agnes Thoburn’s father Joseph attached anywhere to the wider Thoburn tree.  There are several Joseph Thoburns listed by William Fee McKinney [WFM] and in the Irish American Thoburn [IAT] book:

1.   Joseph Thoburn (c1690-1758) m. Agnes Russell.  [WFM/IAT]
2.   Joseph Thoburn (b. 1719) m. Eleanor Barron.  [IAT]  Nephew of #1? 
3.   Joseph Thoburn (b. 1750) m. _____ _____ [IAT/WFM]  GS of #1.
4.   Joseph Thoburn (b. 1759) m. Janet Bigger.  [IAT]  Son of #2. 
5.   Joseph Thoburn (b. 1771) m. Nancy Coey/Coley [IAT/WFM]  Son of #3
6.   Joseph Thoburn (b. 1788) [IAT]  Son of #4

Josephs #1-4 are probably too early.  Joseph #5 died in 1853 according to IAT, but I’ve not found any record of that.  Joseph #6 is a possibility – I have no record of whether he married or when he died.  Ah, you’ve got him in Scotland so that rules him out too.

He could be a Joseph Thoburn not listed by either WFM or IAT, in which case the most likely place to put him would be a son of David Thoburn (c1757-1802) as suggested by Linda.  This David was son of #2 and brother of #4.  He lived at Roughfort which fits.

David Thoburn married Janet Barron in August 1783 according to IAT, so there is plenty of room for him to have a son Joseph born c1790 who could have been father of Agnes Thoburn who married John Adams.

With David’s wife and mother both being Barrons, it is quite likely he inherited land from that family in Roughfort.

Gilby

p.s. I’m also a match to the same Maybin/Adams/Thoburn person on FTDNA.  I emailed them in 2017 and 2019.  No response

[callibaba]

Thank you Gilby and Linda for your very quick replies - I have spent the week still searching.

I did take a look at the naming of John Adams and Agnes Thoburn's children to see if any clues.
First son Thomas - after John's father
Second son John Joseph - Why not Joseph and third son John unless Joseph Thoburn was actually a 'John Joseph"- the John Joseph name has continued in the family.
First Daughter Margaret Anne - Johns mother I think was possibly Margaret but perhaps Agnes's mother was also Margaret also.
Second daughter was Agnes - presumably after her mother.
Third son was David- But not a usual name in John's family- perhaps a brother in Agnes' family?

Just some thoughts.

Also the newspaper announcement refers to Agnes Thoburn as 'the last surviving child' - and she was only about 20 - not "the only child' so to me that implies there were siblings deceased by 1835.

I shall keep searching.

My interest is that Agnes Thoburn would be a gggrandmother of my husband through her son David Adams and down through the maternal line- no DNA tests needed.

Kind regards

[lmgnz]

Hi

As Gilby has said there are a couple of possibilities for the parents of Joseph Thoburn. This is where it is possible DNA would help out. It is not so much to confirm what you already know, though that is always a bonus, but to see if it helps with the unknown.

Anyone of the same generation who shared Agnes as an ancestor on another line to your husband would be his 3rd  cousin. If Agnes had siblings who had family then their descendants would be 4th cousins (i.e share  3x gt grandparents). 3rd and 4th cousins are well within the reach of an autosomal DNA test.  Anyone who shared Joseph's parents with your husband (his 4x gt grandparents)  would be 5th cousins.

You only have about  3% of your DNA from each of your 3x gt grandparents (32 of them) so to get a DNA match you have to find someone with some of the exact same DNA. But it happens. Ancestry tell you how many DNA matches are 4th cousin or closer and in my case that is 503.

In fact you can get DNA matches from 5th to 8th cousins though the chances of a match do get a lot less. My two DNA matches in the Thoburn family of Craigarogan are in the 5th to 8th cousin range. At that point my shared ancestor would be at least a 4th gt grandparent. My DNA match in the McCord family (descended from Agnes) is slightly greater than my other match (Wesley family) who is to a descendant of Joseph Thoburn and Janet Bigger but at that low level of shared DNA the amount of DNA shared can be very variable. My Graham family is from Templepatrick but I do not know my ancestors beyond my 4th gt grandparents (none = Thoburns) so the source of my DNA matches could be anywhere and may not be a Thoburn.

Cheers

Linda