Author Topic: James Drummond b 1788c  (Read 2295 times)

Offline briann1

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #9 on: Friday 04 March 22 17:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi Carole. All the census just state birth Scotland. I have not looked at Scottish census at all to match a Kinross or Falkirk birth,but that’s something to think about
drummond,mordey,atcheson,eden,havelock,hudson

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,104
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #10 on: Friday 04 March 22 18:36 GMT (UK) »
In the 1841 census he says he is 50. Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so he could have been born any time from 8 June 1786 to 7 June 1791.

In 1861 he says he is 73, and in 1871 83, which is consistent and if accurate means that he was born between about April 1787 and March 1788 (because the census was taken at the end of March or beginning of April).

The index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk lists 25 James Drummonds born 1786-1790. Only 21 of these baptism records include the mother's maiden surname. None of the baptisms was in either Kinross or Falkirk. (Where did you find the ones you mention above?)

The post-1855 statutory deaths index lists just 8 James Drummonds born 1788 plus or minus 3 years

There are only two deaths in the index of James Drummonds born 1788 plus or minus three years that can be matched with any of the baptisms:
Mother Duncanson, baptism Logie 1787, died Edinburgh 1872
Mother Ritchie, baptism Forgandenny 1788, died Dunbarney 1875

There are two deaths with no mother's surname
Tillicoultry, 1855, aged 67
Polmont, 1867, aged 80; could be the one baptised in Polmont, 1787, mother's surname Gaff
It may be that the actual death certificates would contain information that would enable them to be indentified with certainty.

And there are four deaths with mother's surname not matching any of the baptisms
Mother McKinnon, Kilmore and Kilbride (Argyll), 1859, aged 66 - if age is accurate, born 1792/1793.
Mother Kesson, Hutchesontown (Glasgow), 1859, aged 68 - this is probably the one baptised in Paisley in 1791
Mother Gairdner, Blackford, 1874, aged 88 - probably the one baptised in Muthill in 1793
Mother Black, Portmoak, 1876, aged 85 - probably the one baptised in Portmoak in 1791
If so all are too young to be confused with your James Drummond.

The index to the 1851 census at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk lists 10 James Drummonds aged 60 to 64.
Age 63, Polmont - born Polmont so probably the one who died in Polmont in 1867
Age 60, Portmoak - born Portmoak so probably the one who died in Portmoak in 1876
Age 60, Cambuslang - born Cambuslang but too young to be confused with yours
Age 62, Dunbarney - born Forgandenny so probably the one who died in Dunbarney in 1875
Age 60, Crieff - born Crieff but possibly too young to be confused with yours
Age 60, Old Kilpatrick - born Old Kilpatrick but possibly too young to be confused with yours
Age 61, Neilston - born Ireland
Age 64, Edinburgh - born Logie, Clackmannanshire so probably the one who died in Edinburgh in 1872
Age 62, Tillicoultry - born Dunning so probably the one baptised in Dunning in 1786 and died in Tillicoultry in 1855
Age 63, Dunblane - born Dunblane so probably the one baptised in Dunblane in 1787

So that leaves 23 baptised in 1786-1790 and not accounted for
Mother Clerk, 1786, Muthill
Mother Donaldson, 1786, Comrie
Mother Irvine, 1787, Shapinsay
Mother Smith, 1787, Sanday
Mother Bishop. 1787, St Cuthbert's (Edinburgh)
Mother Burn, 1788, St Cuthbert's
Mother Whyt, 1788, Portmoak
Mother Buchanan, 1788, Kilmadock
Mother Drummond, 1788, Monzie - but the same parents had another James in 1789 so this one probably died in infancy
Mother Watson, 1788, Dalkeith
Mother Martin, 1788, Larbert
Mother Drummond, 1788, Comrie
Mother Drummond, 1789, Monzie
Mother McRobbie, 1789, Muthill
Mother Wallace, 1790, Durisdeer
Mother Ross, 1790, St Andrews and St Leonards
Mother Millar, 1790, St Ninians (Stirling)
Mother Maxton, 1790, Crieff

And with no mother named:
1786, Dunning
1787, Inverarity
1787, Dunblane
1789, Methven

Why not make a spreadsheet and see if you can match up any more? And take a look at the 1841 census and add that information? There is a reliable census transcription at FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl that is almost complete for Scotland for 1841 - only a few parishes in Perthshire and a few in Berwickshire are still to be added.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline briann1

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #11 on: Friday 04 March 22 18:59 GMT (UK) »
 Hi thanks for all that information. You ask where I got the Falkirk and Portmoak  James Drummond’s from, the Falkirk 1 from the Seaman’s ticket which is the first post here, the Portmoak 1 with mother Mary Whytt is on some tree’s but not any of the tree owners I have managed to contact have a definite link except his birth year being 1788c which as you have pointed out could match quite a few. I have just been looking at the 1841,51,61 census and I have seen the Dunbarney and Dunblane JDs could also match. Maybe I’m asking the impossible with so many options but it’s an open end on my tree
Thanks againForfarian
drummond,mordey,atcheson,eden,havelock,hudson

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,104
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #12 on: Friday 04 March 22 19:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi thanks for all that information. You ask where I got the Falkirk and Portmoak  James Drummond’s from, the Falkirk 1 from the Seaman’s ticket which is the first post here, the Portmoak 1 with mother Mary Whytt is on some tree’s but not any of the tree owners I have managed to contact have a definite link except his birth year being 1788c which as you have pointed out could match quite a few. I have just been looking at the 1841,51,61 census and I have seen the Dunbarney and Dunblane JDs could also match. Maybe I’m asking the impossible with so many options but it’s an open end on my tree
I think you should be able to eliminate any who appear in the census in Scotland.

It wasn't the information on the seaman's ticket I wondered about. You said in your earlier post today, "The main possibility’s seem to be a James Drummond born in Kinross 1788 and a James Drummond born in Falkirk 1789", and there is no record of a baptism in either Kinross or Falkirk.

I think that if he said he was born in Falkirk, that's where you need to look. It's not going to be any of the ones whose baptisms are on record elsewhere. There are several Drummond couples having family baptised in Falkirk between 1777 and 1798, and it may well be that your James is an unrecorded child of one of those couples.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline briann1

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #13 on: Friday 04 March 22 19:42 GMT (UK) »
The seaman’s ticket states born Falkirk 1789, and on F/S states James b-1788 Portmoak parents James Drummond and Mary Wyat
drummond,mordey,atcheson,eden,havelock,hudson

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,104
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #14 on: Friday 04 March 22 20:32 GMT (UK) »
If F/S means that it comes from an online tree at FamilySearch, do not trust it. Never trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary.

Unfortunately there are people who imagine that just because there is only one candidate who roughly fits what they know about the person they are researching, it must be the right person. So they add him/her to their online tree. Then 99 other people find and copy the wrong information to their own trees, and before you know it, "There are 100 trees saying it so it must be correct". 

Portmoak is not close to Falkirk or even in the same county, and the original baptism at Scotland's People gives the surname of the mother of the  James Drummond baptised in Portmoak as Whytt not Wyat.

Your James Drummond said that he was born in Falkirk. Unless his parents moved to Falkirk when he was too young to remember and didn't tell him where he was born, or unless he deliberately lied, then Falkirk is where he was born. Not nearly 40 miles away in a different parish in a different county.

The baptism of James, son of James D and Mary Whytt in Portmoak, was on 30 January 1788. That's one year, 8 months and 15 days before the date when your James Drummond said he was born.

Do you have a list of all your James Drummond's children, in order of birth? Sometimes, if the parents adhered to the Scottish naming tradition, the children's names are a clue to their grandparents' names.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline briann1

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #15 on: Friday 04 March 22 20:46 GMT (UK) »
I don’t know if the seaman’s ticket does belong to my James it is an option, and yes the F/S is what you guessed and the spelling of Mary Whytt was a typo mistake by me, they had 2 other children David and Christian but again although others state this family is the the family of the James That married in Whitby I look for positive links hence this post
drummond,mordey,atcheson,eden,havelock,hudson

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,104
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #16 on: Friday 04 March 22 21:15 GMT (UK) »
Ah, I see.

Have you found him in the 1851 census?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline briann1

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: James Drummond b 1788c
« Reply #17 on: Friday 04 March 22 21:28 GMT (UK) »
No I assumed he was at sea, he first appears in the 1861 census in Trafalgar Square Sunderland but it just states b Scotland 1788, that’s what makes it hard to pin him down as you know there are lots of James Drummond’s in Scotland.
drummond,mordey,atcheson,eden,havelock,hudson