Underwoods Great Yarmouth

[Duodecem]

Yes I have always wondered if the family from the 1891 census was them or not.
What do you all make of the births being different though? On her death cert she was born 1887, on her marriage cert a birth of 1889 would be about right and on the 1891 census her birth would've been about 1890? Also on the marriage cert her fathers name was James Thomas?
Molly

It's not uncommon for families to use middle names or abbreviations on census forms but use their given names for formal documents. It sometimes takes a bit of untangling, at least your James Thomas used both names on the marriage cert, not just James. As for ages it's easy to make an error of a year or 2, it would depend who filled in the census form and whether s/he remembered the exact ages of the whole family.
I've checked FreeBMD  though and the most likely birth is Simmons-Gertrude Louisa registered Mitford Norfolk Dec 1884. (Probably the baptism that Trish found.) Do you think she may have lied about her age, especially if she married a younger man? 
The only other likely births are: Simmons Louisa Lilian M    Wisbech  Dec 1889 or Simmons   Gertrude        Norwich March 1890.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

[Mollyrobz]

Hello Janfurness,

It was Louisa that put down James Thomas Simmons as her fathers name. I haven't seen a marriage cert for James/Thomas/James Thomas as yet.
What I meant was that the Louisa on the 1891 census was in the house of a THOMAS and Ellen, not a James Thomas.
If any of those births that you've found are for her then that eliminates this family in the 1891 census. I do know that Louisa and Charles named THEIR daughter Louisa Ellen Underwood, perhaps after the mother and gran? But of course, this could just be a big coincidence  I don't know which route to take really, I've seen that other people have tried researching this family but it always seems to come to nothing.
Molly

[trish1120]

Re Gertrude Louisa Simmons 1884

1891 she is with her Uncle/Aunt in Cambridgeshire;
Daniel Gould, 36, born Brisley
Louisa Gould, 34, born Brisley
Gertrude L Simmons,6, Neice, born Brisley, Norfolk

Daniel seems to have married Louisa Osborne 1879 Mitford Reg District

Last Census she is with Daniel/Louisa Gould and married ;
Index;
Gertrude BLUNDELL born c 1885 Brisley, Norfolk

1901 she is with them as Gertrude Gould, Daughter.

Havent figured out how she is the Neice or whether they just took her in.

Her Mother Ruth was born c 1867 Walsoken, Norfolk
Parents William/Ruth
Married Charles GOODGER in 1890 Wisbech
Appears on 1891/1901 Census with him.

So I am pretty sure Gertrude Louisa with Parents Thomas/Ellen is yours Molly

[Duodecem]

I agree with Trish-the Gertrude Louise 1884/5 birth and baptism is unlikely to be yours, I don't think it's likely that Louise's parents would have got her age wrong when she was only 1! I think the likeliest birth record is Gertrude Simmons  Norwich March 1890. The record may not have shown her middle name. Many don't (mine included!), but she may have always been known as Louise.
A possible record for her in 1901, aged 12 is in Yarmouth with Frederick Haggate and wife Nellie. She is described as sister to the head of house but might be Nellie's sister. Nellie was born about 1873 in Chatham, Kent. (As was William Simmons b 1871 on the 1891) Nellie could be another Ellen?
(The transcription is Louisa H Simmons but looking at the original I think it more likely that the census recorder started to write Haggate & corrected it to Simmons)

[Mollyrobz]

Hello Trish and Janfurness,

Firstly Trish, thank you for your contribution to the first Louisa Gertrude, it was very very helpful as I have been questioning her for goodness knows how long! I had to have a sigh of relief when I read what you said as it eliminates one candidate 

Secondly thank you Janfurness have you actually seen the census record for the Louisa H? It's a record that I've heard of before but not actually seen, if it is infact what you say and the transcriber went to right Haggate but then changed it to Simmons, that could prove to be invaluable 

This other Louisa that was born in Norwich, does anybody reading this have any info on her? I agree that the Nellie in the census could indeed be another Ellen. Louisa's daughter that married George was also called Louisa Ellen.
Molly

[Mollyrobz]

Possible situation?

Louisa was in the household of Nellie and Frederick Haggate in 1901 and living as a 'sister' of the head, presumably Nellie. Now, this Nellie was born in 1874 I believe in Gt Warley, the same as a few of the others. Thomas and Ellen I think were married 25 December 1876 and on a public member tree on ancestry apparently Thomas was in Bombay until at least 1875 so maybe Nellie wasn't one of his kids? Also I think on the 1911 census it says that the marriage between Thomas and Ellen produced 5 kids and if he was out of the country until 1875 perhaps the oldest children wernt his but from Ellen's past relationships? Maybe the Louisa born 1890 was actually the daughter Nellies on the 1901 census and the Ellen was actually the grandmother?
I hope this all makes sense, my mind was racing as I was trying to type 
Molly

[Mollyrobz]

If anybody is still interested in this post, could somebody possibly do a look up for me? Apparently Thomas Simmons had a brother named James born in 1843. I'm wondering who he went on to marry or where he was at certain times
Molly

[trish1120]

Is this the James you are looking for?

1851 Census
Great Yarmouth;
Thomas Simmons, 33, Twine Spinner
Mary Ann Simmons, 31
Thomas Simmons, 10
James Simmons, 8
Mary A Simmons, 3
Eliza Simmons, 3 Mo
All born Great Yarmouth

Thomas SIMMONS, Bachelor, Twine Spinner, married Mary LARN, Spinster, Seamstress, 1 Nov 1840, St Nicholas, Great Yarmouth
Parents THOMAS Simmons, SAMUEL Larn, both Labourers
Witnesses, Richard Fleet/James Burman

Baptisms, same Church;
JAMES Summons, 14 Sept 1842,(birth 10 Sept 1842) Fathers Occp Twine Spinner
MARY ANN Simmons, 23 March 1856 (birth 20 May 1847), Fathers Occp Rope Maker
Both have Parents as THOMAS/MARY

I was looking for Baptsism to see if Thomas c 1840 was Baptised as Thomas John/John Thomas.

Cant find any other Baptisms on FreeREG for Thomas/Marys Children..

Aaah;
THOMAS Larn Baptised same Church, 31 Aug 1840 (birth 22 Aug 1840, Mother MARY Larn

So born before Nov Marriage.

There is also a JANE SIMMONS Larn birth/death Reg 1839 Great Yarmouth on FreeBMD

[trish1120]

James SIMMONS age 25, Bachelor, Fisherman, married Elizabeth H LEGGETT, Spinster, 28 Aprril 1867, St Nicholas
Parents; THOMAS Simmons, Twine Spinner and JOHN Leggett, Weaver

My Leggetts are from Yarmouth!

1871 James Simmons, 27, Married, is a Mate on a Vessel in Lincolnshire, born c 1844 Yarmouth, Norfolk

1891 in Great Yarmouth we have;
James Semmons, 50, Sea Sailor
Elizabeth Semmons, 51, Wife, Silk Weaver
Elizabeth Semmons, 22, Daug (should be WITHERS, Mar)
Frederick Semmons, 13, Son
Alfred Semmons, 11, Son
Josiah Semmons, 9, Son
Thomas Withers, 25, Son in Law, Sea Sailor
Thomas Withers, 1, Grandson

1881, Elizabeth with Children;
Elizabeth Simmons, 38, Mar, Silk Weaver
Louisa Simmons, 14
Elizabeth Simmons, 12
Phoebe Simmons, 10
James Simmons, 6
Frederick Simmons, 4
Alfred Simmons,   1