Journeyman years

[AlfredJames]

Lots of Germans worked in Britain pre the Great War.

Skoosh.

Britain has always been an open access society, much like other trading nations such as the Netherlands, embracing French Huguenots, Protestant Dutch, Germans, Jews etc, up until the mass immigrations of the late 19th and early 20th century atleast. 

It is interesting to see though how some immigrant groups are overrepresented in certain professions. Butchers, Bakers and Sugar refiners are usually associated with German immigrants for instance.

quote from Migration and Transfer from Germany to Britain, 1660-1914 p 157 'While the board of trade might exaggerate the situation, The Times presents an accurate picture of the ubiquity of the German baker. All of the censuses between 1881 and 1911 give a national figure of over 2000. The Board of Trade estimated that half of 4000 Master Bakers in London in 1887 consisted of Germans'

 

[Rena]

Are you making an assumption that your ancestor came to England solely for experience, or do you know that as a fact?

In the time span of your interest, Germans/Prussians had to make a formal request to leave the country one of the prerequisites was that his apprenticeship (period of servitude) had to have ended and also that no money was owed.  Then a notice was pinned to the town/village hall doors giving notice of the person's intentions - if nobody came forward to protest, then comsideration was given for the applicant to leave the area.

Have you looked on the familysearch site which gives a selection of websits that have Surname Distribution Maps? I used verwandt map to get an idea of where my ancestor came from: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Surname_Distribution_Maps

It seems peculiar to me that your ancestor migrated north to Sunderland and not to a more easily accessible sea port such as Liverpool or London or Hull on the east coast - All three of which were booming at the time of your ancestor's migration.

I think the clue lies in your ancestor's trade. Trade means busy rail/road routes to the nearest docks in one's home country.  He might not have travelled on a passenger ship but travelled on a cargo ship.  As a baker he would need flour and from reading Sunderland's 19th century history it appears that the docks of that town imported wheat, oats and barley from Germany, the low countries and Denmark - plus ships also brought in onions, hay, butter, linseed cakes, gin and apples from what is now modern day Netherlands.

In the 19th century local newspapers printed daily Shipping Arrivals and Departures, e.g. Arrivals: Adventurer (= ship's name), Williams (= captain's surname), Antwerp (= port from where the ship sailed from.   Unfortunately, it seems Sunderland's historic newspapers are not online.

[AlfredJames]

In the time span of your interest, Germans/Prussians had to make a formal request to leave the country one of the prerequisites was that his apprenticeship (period of servitude) had to have ended and also that no money was owed. 

It of course depends on what part of the German empire you're talking about, as the areas in the western part of the German empire were much more liberal than the eastern parts of the empire in what is now modern day Poland. It is impossible to compare Rhenish Prussia, which has a long history of civic participation, to eastern provinces such as Posen or Ostpreussen, which have had long histories of serfdom. I can't imagine a citizen of Aachen or Köln having to ask permission to leave the country, surely not in the second half of the 19th century? I should know this, as I'm a resident of the Netherlands, not too far from the Nijmegen/Kleve border.

[AlfredJames]

It seems peculiar to me that your ancestor migrated north to Sunderland and not to a more easily accessible sea port such as Liverpool or London or Hull on the east coast - All three of which were booming at the time of your ancestor's migration.

I think the clue lies in your ancestor's trade. Trade means busy rail/road routes to the nearest docks in one's home country.  He might not have travelled on a passenger ship but travelled on a cargo ship.  As a baker he would need flour and from reading Sunderland's 19th century history it appears that the docks of that town imported wheat, oats and barley from Germany, the low countries and Denmark - plus ships also brought in onions, hay, butter, linseed cakes, gin and apples from what is now modern day Netherlands.

In the 19th century local newspapers printed daily Shipping Arrivals and Departures, e.g. Arrivals: Adventurer (= ship's name), Williams (= captain's surname), Antwerp (= port from where the ship sailed from.   Unfortunately, it seems Sunderland's historic newspapers are not online.

The fact that he lived in Sunderland doesn't neccesarily mean he entered the country there. He could have moved northward from Hull or Liverpool. I know there were many German pork butchers living in Sunderland at the time, especially in Coronation Street, where he lived, so he probably would have felt right at home there.


This is still very valuable information though. Thank you Renna. Does it also say which parts of Germany and the Netherlands they imported these goods from? Do they list a specific region?

I'm familiar with the Netherlands exporting apples. I'm from a region in the centre of the Netherlands called 'Betuwe' which is very famous for its fruit production, especially apples and pears. I assume the apples were shipped from Rotterdam to Sunderland. Gin, or jenever as it is called, was also shipped from Rotterdam, as Jenever was produced in Schiedam, just outside of Rotterdam (Europe's largest cargo port)

Do you have a link to the article? I would be most grateful. Thanks in advance.

-Alfred

a map I found regarding wheat production in Europe, would this still be representative of the situation  back in the 19th century?

[Skoosh]

There was no German Empire in mid-Victorian times. Scotland had been trading with the Baltic from  before the 1600's, exporting herring, tobacco & cloth, importing timber, lint, grain etc. The exchange of peoples was a two-way business, before the union with England Danzig had population of 30,000 Scots. Poland was our America.

Skoosh.

[sugarbakers]

Was it common for Germans to visit England as part of their 'journeyman years', and if so, why did they choose to visit England?

It's interesting that the discussion so far appears to have centred on your ancestor's <i>choice</i> to come to England to improve his skills.
It may also be worth considering the very basic fact that he <i>needed work</i>.
Employment in Germany at that time was difficult to find, particularly in rural areas, and the move to England was easy with recruitment through agents, adverts, and family connections already living here.
Many came, found work and stayed ... considerably more than a visit.

A useful article ... www.mawer.clara.net/ppanayi.html .

Your ancestor may have had to forget the German system of journeyman years in order to feed himself and his family.

[Rena]

Your ancestor could have used a shipping/travel agent.  Sunderland is in the County of Durham.  Here's a link to an 1890 Directory of Co. Durham. 

 http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p16445coll4/id/218242/rec/2

My area of interest is the port of Hull and it was noticeable that in the 1891 census immigrants stated their country of birth was "Germany", yet in the previous census years they had entered their countries of birth as Hanover or Mecklenberg. If your ancestor in 1891 Sunderland census stated his country of birth was Prussia.  Prussia is part of the Republic of Germany and it could be that their archives could assist you.

Here's a colour coded map of the northern coastline of Europe which shows the historic old names of German states.  I acknowledge there are later maps but they either weren't colour coded or had some other drawback.

If you compare this map with your map you will see which part of Germany and Denmark (Holstein) grew the crops.

[AlfredJames]

Your ancestor could have used a shipping/travel agent.  Sunderland is in the County of Durham.  Here's a link to an 1890 Directory of Co. Durham. 

 http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p16445coll4/id/218242/rec/2

My area of interest is the port of Hull and it was noticeable that in the 1891 census immigrants stated their country of birth was "Germany", yet in the previous census years they had entered their countries of birth as Hanover or Mecklenberg. If your ancestor in 1891 Sunderland census stated his country of birth was Prussia.  Prussia is part of the Republic of Germany and it could be that their archives could assist you.

Here's a colour coded map of the northern coastline of Europe which shows the historic old names of German states.  I acknowledge there are later maps but they either weren't colour coded or had some other drawback.

If you compare this map with your map you will see which part of Germany and Denmark (Holstein) grew the crops.

On the 1891 census he lists his country of birth as 'Prussia|Germany'. On the 1901 and 1911 census it just says Germany. (Germany resident on the 1911 census)

Is there a possibility he came from the northern part of what is now Saxony-Anhalt, along the northern part of the Elbe river? If you look at the map, the area south east of Hamburg is coloured dark green (the area between Hamburg and Magdeburg) and I assume the area around the river Elbe was very fertile.

But then again, he was not a businessman or involved in any commercial activities, he was a labourer. As a journeyman baker & confectioner, he would have been employed by others. Your theory seems interesting, but his immigration probably had nothing to do with a larger trading network. He could have travelled to Sunderland upon hearing there was a large German speaking community.

[Rena]

These little things such as tribal wars are sent to try us 

My ancestor usually noted Hanover on the census as his country of origin, then changed it 1891 to Germany. (He was actually born in a village in what used to be the British Saxon "Kingdom of Hannover").   My aunt told me that the family always called him "the Austrian".  He was born in the 1850s and when he was quite young Prussia and Austria organised all the Germanic states to come together under one umberella, if a state demurred then a war was likely to start up and that's what happened up to and during the 1860s when people were eager to leave before a gun was fired. This carried on in the 1870s and eventually got sorted out circa 1902-ish.  Many young men who didn't want to be conscripted into the navy or army went AWOL  This is what my ancestor's uncle decided to do and he took my six year old ancestor away from his parents and homeland to safety. 

1891 census entry = PRUSSIA/GERMANY.  Britain recognised the independent state of Prussia, it also then recognised the legal Treaty signed by individual states when they agreed the overall name of their shared country should be Germany. Thus your ancestor could be from the original state of Prussia in Germany or he could have lived in a smaller state under the rule of Prussia in the overall state of Germany.

Two thirds down on this webpage is a map that is colour coded.  Underneath the map are the colour coded lists of countries that came under the umbrella of (1) Prussia;  (2) Austria), (3) Neutral, and (4) countries with disputed sovereignty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War

When one looks at the list ruled by the Austrian Empire it's easy to see why my kin called their relative from Hannover, "the Austrian".

As for the Prussian Kingdom and your ancestor's roots; besides the original Prussia itself before Chancellor Bismark took other states under its wing, you have 15 other states to choose from - it even ruled Italy!  If you notice the country "Brunswick" - every town in England has a street, or a square or a house named "Brunswick" - that's because the British Duke of Brunswick once used to rule over the principality.

Quite often the surname can give a clue to its origin - such as northern, eastern Germany, etc. 

Here's a small sample of surnames originating in eastern Prussia for example
http://surnames.behindthename.com/submit/names/usage/german-east-prussian