How can you tell if your circa 1800 ancestor is Jewish

[JustinL]

Greenwood would have been a perfectly logical Anglicization of the surname Gruenwald / Gruenwald.

However, such a change is more likely to have been made by immigrant German Jews in the early years of the 20th century, in the years preceding and following WWI. Indeed, a Gruenebaum family married into my family in 1880. The surname was changed to Greenwood before WWI.

Jews started to re-appear in the UK - almost exclusively in London - in the late 17th century. They gradually spread to large urban centres during the 19th century. I think I can say with absolute certainty that there were no Jews in rural Yorkshire in the early 19th century - or later for that matter.

The more obvious explanation for the lack of a baptism record for Henry Greenwood is that he was not baptised or the record has been lost or rendered illegible or his family were non-conformists.

Hiram is simply a biblical name. To me, the use of that name is an indication that the Greenwoods were Baptists. Baptists in my family were given name such as Elijah and Aaron.

Justin

[element4]

Children baptised to Henry and Fanny Greenwood - here

That is perfect, thank you.  https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AGreenwood%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1810-1830~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3AHenry%20%2Bmother_givenname%3AFanny%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland

I can see how most of their children including Thomas (1817) were born in Heptonstall, and then the youngest Mary is christened on 28th March 1830 at the Cathedral church in Manchester.  And the 1871 census shows Henry and Fanny with one of their daughters,
Ada Mary, and maybe grandchildren.

[element4]

Greenwood would have been a perfectly logical Anglicization of the surname Gruenwald / Gruenwald.

However, such a change is more likely to have been made by immigrant German Jews in the early years of the 20th century, in the years preceding and following WWI. Indeed, a Gruenebaum family married into my family in 1880. The surname was changed to Greenwood before WWI.

Jews started to re-appear in the UK - almost exclusively in London - in the late 17th century. They gradually spread to large urban centres during the 19th century. I think I can say with absolute certainty that there were no Jews in rural Yorkshire in the early 19th century - or later for that matter.

The more obvious explanation for the lack of a baptism record for Henry Greenwood is that he was not baptised or the record has been lost or rendered illegible or his family were non-conformists.

Hiram is simply a biblical name. To me, the use of that name is an indication that the Greenwoods were Baptists. Baptists in my family were given name such as Elijah and Aaron.

Justin

Thank you, that is interesting.  I was just searching for the history of Jewish immigration in Manchester, then I saw Heywood's post that seems to solve everything.  I have noticed the name Hiram in the records for West Yorkshire quite a lot, so assumed that it was a common name in the nineteenth century, and it is interesting that you link it with Baptists, who also seem to have held a lot of sway with working class northern people in the nineteenth century; it seems as though they were about empowering working class people through education and getting them to think for themselves.

(the name Elija is a great name).

[Rena]

I've only ever noticed the given name Hiram/Hyram in American census, so was surprised to see this:-

Hiram;  an English given name, Hiram came into use after the Protestant Reformation. In the 17th century the Puritans brought it to America, where it gained some currency.

[element4]

I've only ever noticed the given name Hiram/Hyram in American census, so was surprised to see this:-

Hiram;  an English given name, Hiram came into use after the Protestant Reformation. In the 17th century the Puritans brought it to America, where it gained some currency.

That is interesting.  It might partly explain why Thomas Greenwood didn't (I don't think that church, St Mary, St Denys and St George, Manchester, is Catholic) marry his Irish wife in a Catholic church, he may have felt quite strongly about his Baptist religion, and been a lot less agnostic and amenable to conversion as people in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. 

Also there is a record for a baptism of Thomas Greenwood in 1866, when he would have been nearly 50, in Hebden Bridge.  I assumed this is wrong and haven't yet tried to find out more about it.  But Baptists do believe in baptising adults, and the earlier records for that family are listed as christenings on the IGI link that Heywood gave me.  I did wonder what the difference was between christenings and baptisms, and maybe to the Baptist church it means a lot, not just different terminology.  If that 1866 baptism does refer to my great great grandfather Thomas Greenwood, then that is a good locating of him as he otherwise disappears after the 1851 census, can't be found on the 1861 census, and it is possibly him living with a different wife on the 1871 census in Manchester.

[heywood]

I'm getting a bit confused. Is that not him baptised to Henry and Fanny?

Baptism and Christening describe the same event.

At that time many Catholics married in the Anglican Church. In your case, that church became the Anglican Cathedral of Manchester.

[element4]

I'm getting a bit confused. Is that not him baptised to Henry and Fanny?

Baptism and Christening describe the same event.

At that time many Catholics married in the Anglican Church. In your case, that church became the Anglican Cathedral of Manchester.

I am sure your link showing Thomas Greenwood christened in 1817, with parents Henry and Fanny, is correct.

I might have got some things confused with another record.  There are a lot of Greenwoods and I need to be very careful.

Thanks for the explanation of why Thomas and Bridget got married in what was the Anglican church.

[Rena]

The point about Catholics being baptised/christened in other churches.

I had the same situation with a Catholic family in a German census - the five children were all baptised in the local village (non Catholic) church.  Then when the oldest was 10 years old the family made a special visit to the "local" Catholic church situated in the nearest large town where all children were baptised again.  Apparently, according to the Catholic archivist, this dispensation was given to people with low wages who could only manage to get to the local parish church.   

[element4]

The point about Catholics being baptised/christened in other churches.

I had the same situation with a Catholic family in a German census - the five children were all baptised in the local village (non Catholic) church.  Then when the oldest was 10 years old the family made a special visit to the "local" Catholic church situated in the nearest large town where all children were baptised again.  Apparently, according to the Catholic archivist, this dispensation was given to people with low wages who could only manage to get to the local parish church.

I am wondering a lot if many religions baptised/christened their babies at the local church but later on baptised them in their own faith.  And certainly Baptists don't believe in baptising infants, they believe it is a personal choice and the youngest age they baptise is about eleven.  But they may well have given their infants a christening ceremony at the local church, I don't know enough about what happened in practice.