Author Topic: Caw/Mailer, Crieff  (Read 2973 times)

Online AngusMcCoatup

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« on: Monday 07 March 16 13:41 GMT (UK) »
Hello, first-poster here.

I'm looking for help in finding some information on a Jessie Mailer from around 1802-1844.

Background: my mum did the initial ancestry research best part of 30 years ago, writing the tree on the back of a roll of old wallpaper. This was subsequently entered into a PC application around 1990 which allowed easier maintenance over the years. My sister-in-law and myself are now using the various online tools to manage the trees, confirm the initial research and find out more information, but we're stuck on one particular ancestor. This is what we have...

James Caw (1751-1820) married a Margaret Smitton (b. 1773) in 1793 in Auchterarder. They had four children: Janet (1795-1887), James (1797-1876), John (1799-1868) and William (1807-1876).

William Caw married a Jessie Mailer (1802-1844) in 1840 and had two sons, James (1841-1914) and John (1843-1901). Sadly Jessie died in 1844 but only two years later, William married again - Jessie's younger sister Helen (1810-1874). They had two children, William (1847-1850?) and Margaret (?).

We've been able to find a fair bit about Helen Mailer including;
a) birth/baptism record (7th Aug 1810)
b) marriage certificate (25th Nov 1846)
c) death certificate (11th Nov 1874 which also lists her stepson John as informant)
d) 1851 census showing William living with Helen and the two eldest children (there's no mention of William born in 1847 so can only assume he died in infancy). William was a Cabinetmaker in Crieff.
e) the death certificate lists Helen's parents as John Mailer (farmer) and Margaret Smitton (wonder if this is a relation of Helen's mother-in-law?)

But we've very little on Jessie Mailer...
a) there is a birth certificate online for a Janet Mailer, b. 20th Sep 1802 with parents listed as John Mailer and Mary Mailer - could this Mary Mailer be the same Margaret as Helen's listed mother? Was Margaret written as Marg. and someone has interpreted this as Mary?
b) marriage certificate to William Caw on 29th March 1840
c) not been able to locate a death certificate
d) we've been looking for both Janet and Jessie Mailer as both names seem to have been used interchangeably
e) we also considered that Jessie and Helen were cousins rather than siblings, or even not related at all, but we've not been able to confirm anything. Mother is convinced they were siblings but perhaps this was just based on an assumption
f) think the farm was called Cornhill

Our main interest is the Caw lineage, but would be interested to find out about the Mailer family. So if anyone has any relevant info, or is aware of any mistakes made above, I'd be grateful.

Thanks.

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 31,399
  • Girl with firewood, Morar 1910 - MEM Donaldson
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #1 on: Monday 07 March 16 21:36 GMT (UK) »
Hi Angus

Welcome to RootsChat  :)

Up until the early 1900s, it was actually illegal to marry your wife's sister. Lot of good info online for this (for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceased_Wife's_Sister's_Marriage_Act_1907).

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online AngusMcCoatup

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #2 on: Monday 07 March 16 22:53 GMT (UK) »
Well, that's very interesting! Didn't know that at all. Wonder if mum's assumption that they were sisters is incorrect, or they went ahead with the marriage anyway knowing they were breaking the law.

Thanks for the reply.

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 31,399
  • Girl with firewood, Morar 1910 - MEM Donaldson
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 08 March 16 19:51 GMT (UK) »
Angus, just some more thoughts. Wish I could find something more definitive...


a) there is a birth certificate online for a Janet Mailer, b. 20th Sep 1802 with parents listed as John Mailer and Mary Mailer - could this Mary Mailer be the same Margaret as Helen's listed mother? Was Margaret written as Marg. and someone has interpreted this as Mary?


The maiden name of that 1802 entry for the Janet you mention, mother Mary shows with a maiden name of Mailer too, like father John. Whilst abbreviations of Mary/Marg can sometimes confuse, I would say that the maiden names given for that Janet and Helen's entry which you also have would indicate different couples.

You likely have this, but just to add in case. There are other children showing for both couples:

John Mailer and Mary Mailer, all in Auchterarder:

John 1795 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-G9Q
Mary 1796 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-FVJ
Lillias 1798 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-J62
William 1800 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-PJY
Janet 1802 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-2Z9
Christian 1806 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-N4W

Banns or Marriage for this couple in 1794 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSY-YXG

John Mailer and Margaret Smillet, all in Auchterarder:

Helen 1810 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-FYY
John 1812 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-LHL
Catherine 1813 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-J5J
Peter 1817 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-584
Ann 1820 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1X1-SF8
Elizabeth 1822 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1XB-TVL
Mary 1825 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1XB-GLQ
Catherine 1827 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1XB-YFJ...second named (likely first died)
Janet 1831 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1X1-QVV
James 1833 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1FM-12B

With a Janet born to this couple in 1831, I would say likely excludes them.

Monica

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 31,399
  • Girl with firewood, Morar 1910 - MEM Donaldson
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 08 March 16 20:07 GMT (UK) »
Have you come across this other birth for a Janet? So happens father is also a John (mother a Janet Couper/Cooper) and in Auchterarder too. Other children for this couple include:

Mary 1797 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-FV2
George 1799 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-2JK
Jean 1800 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-NK3
John 1804 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-G96
Janet 1806 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-2ZQ
James 1809 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-RVV

Banns or Marriage for this couple in 1794 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSY-YXN

Monica

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online AngusMcCoatup

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 09 March 16 11:49 GMT (UK) »
Angus, just some more thoughts. Wish I could find something more definitive...
Kind of glad you've not found anything as it would have been a bit embarrassing if there was something obvious out there that we missed!

The maiden name of that 1802 entry for the Janet you mention, mother Mary shows with a maiden name of Mailer too, like father John. Whilst abbreviations of Mary/Marg can sometimes confuse, I would say that the maiden names given for that Janet and Helen's entry which you also have would indicate different couples.
As we couldn't find anything conclusive to tie Helen and Janet to the same parents, I'm wondering whether John married more than once. So that would make them half-sisters and maybe the Deceased Wife's Sister Marriage Act didn't apply?

Or there was more than one John Mailer. And I wish documents would always show the mother's maiden name rather than sometimes their married name.

You likely have this, but just to add in case. There are other children showing for both couples:

John Mailer and Mary Mailer, all in Auchterarder:

John 1795 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-G9Q
Mary 1796 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-FVJ
Lillias 1798 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-J62
William 1800 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-PJY
Janet 1802 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-2Z9
Christian 1806 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-N4W

Banns or Marriage for this couple in 1794 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSY-YXG
That was the date of birth for Janet we were working from as we had assumed she was older than Helen.

John Mailer and Margaret Smillet, all in Auchterarder:

Helen 1810 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-FYY
John 1812 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-LHL
Catherine 1813 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-J5J
Peter 1817 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-584
Ann 1820 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1X1-SF8
Elizabeth 1822 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1XB-TVL
Mary 1825 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1XB-GLQ
Catherine 1827 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1XB-YFJ...second named (likely first died)
Janet 1831 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1X1-QVV
James 1833 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1FM-12B

With a Janet born to this couple in 1831, I would say likely excludes them.

Monica
Again, that was the date of birth we were using for Helen as it seemed to fit in with the rest of the documents we could find. But I agree, that Janet would not fit with the timeline for being married to William Caw in 1840. But it may not be the same Janet so we'll see where that lead takes us.

Have you come across this other birth for a Janet? So happens father is also a John (mother a Janet Couper/Cooper) and in Auchterarder too. Other children for this couple include:

Mary 1797 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-FV2
George 1799 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-2JK
Jean 1800 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-NK3
John 1804 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-G96
Janet 1806 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-2ZQ
James 1809 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ7N-RVV

Banns or Marriage for this couple in 1794 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYSY-YXN

Monica
That's a possibility, we'll certainly look into that further.

I've had a look through the burial registers for PKC for Mailer, Smitton, Caw and anything else I could think of, but nothing positive was found. However I appreciate these registers are not complete.

I did find a reference to a John Mailer in Cornhill (where Janet/Jessie was supposedly born) from 1892 so I'm assuming that's a further generation or three down from the John Mailer (farmer) registered on Helen's death certificate.

Wasn't able to find Janet on the 1841 census at all (using freecen), unless her entry was never added online, or I've been using the wrong search criteria.

Perhaps Janet is just going to have to remain an enigma. But we've got a couple of more things to look at closer. Many thanks for your help.

Offline isobelw

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,555
  • Gran & Granpa Clotworthy
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 09 March 16 12:23 GMT (UK) »
Not all of Perthshire has been transcribed on Freecen for 1841. I think they are in Crieff (Ancestry/findmypast/Scotlandspeople). William and Janet are both age 30 born In county and son James is 3 months. There is also a 15 year old lodger called Margaret Riddoch.
Isobel
Clotworthy, McMahon, Saunderson, Culley (Ireland & Scotland)
Weatherall, Greer (Ireland & Scotland)
Hamilton, Johnston, Dawson, Rennie, Wright (Clackmannanshire)

Online AngusMcCoatup

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 09 March 16 15:50 GMT (UK) »
Not all of Perthshire has been transcribed on Freecen for 1841. I think they are in Crieff (Ancestry/findmypast/Scotlandspeople). William and Janet are both age 30 born In county and son James is 3 months. There is also a 15 year old lodger called Margaret Riddoch.
Isobel

Thanks for that. At least it shows Janet actually existed, all we need to do now is find out her parents.

Online AngusMcCoatup

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Caw/Mailer, Crieff
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 13 March 16 11:59 GMT (UK) »
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

Mum has changed her mind again and is now adamant that she never said they were sisters. Janet came from Cornhill, Helen was from the Eind.

So that brings a completely new perspective on the subject. Apologies to anyone who wasted their time looking for two sisters that weren't.