Caw/Mailer, Crieff

[isobelw]

Helen appears to be living at Cornhill in 1841. Down as Hellen Marler ( b1812) on Ancestry.
Isobel

[AngusMcCoatup]

The birth records we have show Helen was born in 1810 and mum says she was born in the Eind.

Maybe Janet had a sister called Helen who was born at Cornhill in 1812? Or am I just opening up another can of worms?!

[isobelw]

The others living with Helen in Cornhill all look to be children of John Mailer and Margaret Smitton (although the ages are out slightly on a couple of them). Obviously relationships aren't shown in 1841 but I think they are all likely to be siblings of Helen. As John and Margaret appear to have had a daughter called Janet in 1831 ( although she doesn't appear on this 1841 census entry) it seems unlikely that they had another earlier daughter with the same name who married William Caw.
Out of interest, where is the Eind?
Isobel

[AngusMcCoatup]

We think the parents of Helen are John and Margaret Smitton as the documents we have found point to this but it was supposedly Janet that was from Cornhill, not Helen. However, given the "reuse" of names across families, it wouldn't surprise me that there is more than one Helen and more than one Janet.

Monica found a sibling Janet to Helen in post #3 above, but that would probably put her birth date to be too late to be William's spouse in 1840 (she'd be only nine then). The Janet we are looking for on the 1841 census shows her aged 30 living with William and son James (aged three months). So that would give her birth year of 1810 +/- five years rather than the 1802 I was working to and again found in Monica's #3 post above.

Just using a favourite search engine looking for "eind perthshire" I found an index for an entry to Scotland's Places which mentions "Wester Eind, property of Mr Mailer" and "West Eind, nr Auchterarder".

[isobelw]

John Mailer farmer at Cornhill died in an accident in 1840 while travelling home to the farm. He seems to have missed the road in the dark and ended up in a ditch. There is a will on SP.
From 1841 to 1861 the farmer at Wester Eind was George Mailer born 1801 in Auchterarder. He died in October 1862. Assuming that one or other woman (Helen/Janet) was from Eind then it seems likely they would be a sibling of this George so might be worth looking at his death cert on SP to find out who his parents were.
Isobel

[MonicaL]

Just to recap some of what we had.

Helen Mailer, second wife of William Caw. Angus, you have her death cert from 1874 confirming her parents as John Mailer and Margaret Smitton. You also have an OPR birth/christening entry from 1810.  We know that her family were from Cornhill. Isobel's mention of a will entry might provide more details. She also has found Helen in Cornhill for 1841. From an online tree, Helen's brother Peter b.1817 died in 1855. 1855 death certs include place of birth. His is given as Cornhill. Parents names also confirmed as John Mailer of Cornhill and Margaret Smitton, both deceased. Before his death, the 1851 census shows Peter was running the farm and land at Cornhill.

First wife Janet. I am more inclined, with all that we have to favour the family of John Mailer and Janet Couper/Cooper. As showing earlier, apart from a Janet b. 1806, they also had a George b.1799. It is this George who I think Isobel is referring to as farming at Wester Eind. This 1832 electoral roll mentions both families in Cornhill and Wester Eind http://perthshirecrieffstrathearnlocalhistor.blogspot.co.uk/2015_12_01_archive.html  Reference also here to John Mailer as being of Western Eind and Nether Eind www.rootschat.com/links/01h9j/

You haven't mentioned your mother's sources for her research. Possible that Janet and Helen's origins were the orther way round? Janet of Wester Eind and Helen of Cornhill?

Monica

[isobelw]

Good summary, Monica. There is a 76 year old Janet Mailer in the household at Wester Eind in 1841 who could be Janet nee Couper/Cooper.
Isobel

[AngusMcCoatup]

Just to recap some of what we had.

Helen Mailer, second wife of William Caw. Angus, you have her death cert from 1874 confirming her parents as John Mailer and Margaret Smitton. You also have an OPR birth/christening entry from 1810. We know that her family were from Cornhill.

No, I'm not sure about that. We have it that Helen came from The Eind and Janet was from Cornhill.

From an online tree, Helen's brother Peter b.1817 died in 1855. 1855 death certs include place of birth. His is given as Cornhill. Parents names also confirmed as John Mailer of Cornhill and Margaret Smitton, both deceased. Before his death, the 1851 census shows Peter was running the farm and land at Cornhill.

This is interesting. If Peter is Helen's sibling (parentage looks to be identical) then why was he born at Cornhill and Helen at The Eind?

This 1832 electoral roll mentions both families in Cornhill and Wester Eind

Mum called it "The Eind". I don't know if it was Wester or Outer or the Lesser Spotted Eind. Perhaps "The Eind" was the colloquial name for Wester Eind.

You haven't mentioned your mother's sources for her research.

The research was done in the 80s/90s from visits to Register House and hunting round cemeteries looking for clues. I don't know where Cornhill and The Eind are mentioned, perhaps they are on Birth/Death certificates. I remember seeing Janet's entry in Brother's Keeper for years as "Born in 1802 at Cornhill" before revisiting the trees recently. Never knew what Cornhill meant until I found out it was the name of a farm.

Possible that Janet and Helen's origins were the other way round? Janet of Wester Eind and Helen of Cornhill?

Knowing my mum, anything is possible!

Thank you both for your continued interest and contributions.

[AngusMcCoatup]

From 1841 to 1861 the farmer at Wester Eind was George Mailer born 1801 in Auchterarder. He died in October 1862. Assuming that one or other woman (Helen/Janet) was from Eind then it seems likely they would be a sibling of this George so might be worth looking at his death cert on SP to find out who his parents were.
Isobel

Thanks for that suggestion. Death certificate shows George's parents as John Mailer (farmer) and Janet Mailer nee Cowper/Couper. George also married a Janet Sheddan in 1837 to make another Janet Mailer just to complicate things! But this seems to confirm George is the sibling of the Janet Mailer who married William Caw.

Have tried to match the Janet Mailer/Caw with other trees on Ancestry but is coming up with blanks - there are some trees which have Janet Mailer/Caw living on until the 1860s but as their interest probably lies with other branches of the tree then they're not going to be interested in what happened to Janet. Perhaps this is correct? Maybe Janet didn't die as we had assumed? As we've no death certificate for Janet and no comprehensive wedding certificate we can't prove whether William was a widower or divorced at the time of his marriage to Helen. However I'm not able to find a death of any Janet Mailer/Caw after 1855 so I think we could rule this out, unless she emigrated or something.

It is looking more likely the Janet Mailer/Caw was born on 9th Nov 1806 to John Mailer and Janet Couper rather than the 1802 date I was working from originally. This would agree a bit more with the 1841 census which gives her age as 30 but we know they used to round ages up and down to the nearest five or so.

Edit: forgot to mention, I think some of this "research" that mum talked about was actually word of mouth passed down from her father (Janet's grandson), so it's highly likely some detail has been lost or misinterpreted.