Please help solve a mystery - two John Tulips in same family

[JoTH]

Hi,
I have a mystery which has niggled me for a long time and thought I'd go back to looking into it this afternoon. Having failed to solve it, I thought I'd turn to you guys as I know so many of you have turned up trumps in the past.

William Tulip married Margaret Bones in 1802 in Newburn.

In 1803 they had a daughter Alice in Throckley.

In 1805 their 1st son John (Born November 25th 1805 Baptised January 26th 1806)

In 1808 their 2nd son in High Felling, Gateshead - on parish register as Jno. transcribed by all the main sites as John (born 12 Oct 1808, baptised 4 Dec 1808). The only difference is that his mother is down as Margaret Barns instead of Bones (her father is also mentioned as in previous baptisms).

There is no marriage between a William Tulip and Margaret Barns and in all the children baptisms Margaret is mentioned with surname Bones with her father being Thomas, all other information given on the registers also match.

HOWEVER, I cannot find a death of the first John, which of course could be the simplest solution. So can anyone help solve the mystery by finding the first John's death or coming up with a suitable explanation as to why they'd have called both sons John!

The rest of the children were baptised in Tynemouth except the last one who was Easington (Samuel, William, Thomas, Margaret, Robert William & Matthew). Robert William's baptism is down as William but I have both older William and Robert W reaching old age.

Any help much appreciated - maybe they did repeat themselves on names but where as the Williams are found in later age, only one John is around to marry Martha Christie and die in 1863.

Thanks
Joanna

[Annette7]

The one b.1805 Throckley seems to be the one married to a Martha in 1861 in Haswell, Durham??

Annette

[JoTH]

Yes Annette, his dates all match up with being married to Martha and then with his death.  Although I'd sort of thought because there were two Johns that the first had died and the second just got his birth mixed up and was the one married to Martha.
However on reflection once having typed up my previous message, it does seem strange that they baptised two of their sons William as well!

[Annette7]

Jno. is normally the short version of Jonathan - plus there may well of course been a William Tulip married to a Margaret Barns.   Just because you haven't found such a marriage doesn't mean it never took place.   Not everything is online much as we wish it were.   

Annette

[JoTH]

A lot of sites for old english abbreviations indicate Jno is John and strongly advise against it being Jonathan. Also all sites have transcribed him as John.
 
And yes a William Tulip might have married a Margaret Barns but on the majority of the baptisms including the two Johns, it says child of William of Ovingham (pitman) and Margaret Bones/Barns daughter of Thomas B of Lanchester. It seems too much of a coincidence that the same information would apply for Bones and Barns.

Joanna

[SelDen]

Looking at the two entries on www.freereg.org.uk they certainly seem to be the same family. The second Jno (John) is said to be the second son of the couple - presume this fits in with the other info you have?

As you note, the most likely option is that the first John died, and that you just haven't found the burial yet. I can't see it in Newburn, but it could be anywhere between Throckley and High Felling and parishes adjoining those locations. Relatively few burials are indexed on line - you have to use the unindexed BTs (which all have gaps) or visit the record office if you live locally or order films to view at the nearest LDS Family History Centre, or buy transcripts from the Northumberland and Durham Family History Society - to work your way through the different burial registers.

It does not account for the second John seeming to add a couple of years to his age, but maybe he just wasn't sure how old he was.

Good luck.

[jaybelnz]

Worth remembering that some census were rounded to nearest 5 years.

[SelDen]

Only 1841 (of those used by/available to family historians).

[lydiaann]

It might be worth looking at 'Burials' for the 2 years in question (i.e. between the birth dates of the 2 Johns) under Durham Diocese Bishop's Transcripts in LDS records.  Also, with regard to marriage, it could be an 'irregular' marriage, documents regarding which are extremely few and far between and not generally on line.