Still birth records. ???

[jupiter1]

FACT
I have been looking for years for a little girl known as Vickie (Vicky, Victoria?).
She was probably a still birth or born alive and died almost immediately there after.

Parents were Lillie (nee CONNAH) and Alfred Ernest MATHEW.

Lillie was born 31Jan1887 in Buxton, Derbyshire, and Baptised 27-2-1887.
Albert Ernest Born 31-July- 1879 at Mile End, baptized 4-Sept-1884 at St Pauls, Shadwell, Tower Hamlets.

Lillie CONNAH Married Alfred Ernest MATHEW at Mile End 1905/Q4 ref 1C706a
      
SPECULATION
Lillie married Mathew (a travelling musician) as the result of a pregnancy. Is this the elusive Vickie?

FACT
Vickie would have been born in the period about 1905/Q1 to 1906/Q4 or possibly as late as 1909/Q1 when Lillie's second daughter (Ruth Janette) was conceived though this later period is unlikely.

During this time this couple were living at Lillie's mother's house at 11Jupps Rd. Mile End.

There is no record of the birth or death of Vickie MATHEW (or CONNAH) in the BDM registers.

To confuse matters Lillie continued to live at Jupps Rd (as a bigamously married couple) with William Henry FLEMING from about 1909 so Vickie could have been under the surname Fleming, though this is very unlikely. (See 1911 census below for this address)

I have attempted to search the "Burial records" on several occasions but have all ways got "no records" or adverts for books.

I am un-familiar with these burial records so I am probably doing something wrong.
Any assistance or information with this issue will be very much appreciated.

1911 Census for CONNAH
Address is 11 Jupps Road the census reference is RG14 Piece 1630 RG78PN57 RD21 SD2 ED14 SN119.
Name                 Relation       Yrs married        Sex     Age Birth Year      Occupation      Where Born
CONNAH, Mary Ruth   Head           Married 30 years F       50     1861                                     Manchester
FLEMING, William Henry     Son In Law  Married               M       26     1885    Butchers Assistant   Bethnal Green
FLEMING, Lillie                   Daughter      Married 4 years    F      24     1887                                     Buxton Derbyshire
FLEMING, Ruth Janette       Granddaughter Single      F    1y5m    1910                                    London Hospital
CONNAH, Arthur                  Son                  Single   M      20      1891    Labourer General    Leyton Essex
CONNAH, Herbert                Son                  Single         F       17      1894    Labourer General    Leyton Essex
FLEMING                              Granddaughter                   F         0 (3 DAYS) 1911                         Mile End

1911 Census for MATHEWS
Living at 16 South Grove, Bow East, Mile End, London.
Frances      mother   wid   68    Aldermaston, Berkshire.           B c1843
Alfred Ernest      son   unm   30   Mile End      Travelling Musician    B c1879
Florence Maud      dau   unm   29   Mile End      Cook in dining rooms B c1882

[Yonks Ago]

jupiter1,

I think 'still births' were not recorded so there would not be  a registration...if the baby didn't take a breath then the baby was still birth.

Yonks

[KGarrad]

The Stillbirth Register only started in 1927 (England & Wales).
Before then there are no official records.

RootsChatter Guy Etchells has some stillbirths on his website:
http://anguline.co.uk/stillbirths.html

Might be worth a look?

[Guy Etchells]

FACT
I have been looking for years for a little girl known as Vickie (Vicky, Victoria?).
She was probably a still birth or born alive and died almost immediately there after.

Parents were Lillie (nee CONNAH) and Alfred Ernest MATHEW.

Lillie was born 31Jan1887 in Buxton, Derbyshire, and Baptised 27-2-1887.
Albert Ernest Born 31-July- 1879 at Mile End, baptized 4-Sept-1884 at St Pauls, Shadwell, Tower Hamlets.

Lillie CONNAH Married Alfred Ernest MATHEW at Mile End 1905/Q4 ref 1C706a

Do you have a copy of this marriage or are you assuming this is the correct Lillie?
Is Lillie’s address given as Jupps Road?
Do the fathers’ names tie in?
Do you know when Lillie Connah moved to “London”?

      
SPECULATION
Lillie married Mathew (a travelling musician) as the result of a pregnancy. Is this the elusive Vickie?

FACT
Vickie would have been born in the period about 1905/Q1 to 1906/Q4 or possibly as late as 1909/Q1 when Lillie's second daughter (Ruth Janette) was conceived though this later period is unlikely.

During this time this couple were living at Lillie's mother's house at 11Jupps Rd. Mile End.

There is no record of the birth or death of Vickie MATHEW (or CONNAH) in the BDM registers.

What is you source for Vickie, is this a family story? Are you certain that any child was a girl?
There is a Alfred Victor Mathew showing on the deaths register June 1906, West Ham, 4a, 15

To confuse matters Lillie continued to live at Jupps Rd (as a bigamously married couple) with William Henry FLEMING from about 1909 so Vickie could have been under the surname Fleming, though this is very unlikely. (See 1911 census below for this address)

What makes you think they were living as a bigamously married couple?
There is a marriage on FreeBMD for
Marriages Jun 1919
Connah, Lillie, Fleming, St. Geo. H. Sq., 1a, 1293

Could this be them?

I have attempted to search the "Burial records" on several occasions but have all ways got "no records" or adverts for books.

I am un-familiar with these burial records so I am probably doing something wrong.
Any assistance or information with this issue will be very much appreciated.

1911 Census for CONNAH
Address is 11 Jupps Road the census reference is RG14 Piece 1630 RG78PN57 RD21 SD2 ED14 SN119.
Name                 Relation       Yrs married        Sex     Age Birth Year      Occupation      Where Born
CONNAH, Mary Ruth   Head           Married 30 years F       50     1861                                     Manchester
FLEMING, William Henry     Son In Law  Married               M       26     1885    Butchers Assistant   Bethnal Green
FLEMING, Lillie                   Daughter      Married 4 years    F      24     1887                                     Buxton Derbyshire
FLEMING, Ruth Janette       Granddaughter Single      F    1y5m    1910                                    London Hospital
CONNAH, Arthur                  Son                  Single   M      20      1891    Labourer General    Leyton Essex
CONNAH, Herbert                Son                  Single         F       17      1894    Labourer General    Leyton Essex
FLEMING                              Granddaughter                   F         0 (3 DAYS) 1911                         Mile End

1911 Census for MATHEWS
Living at 16 South Grove, Bow East, Mile End, London.
Frances      mother   wid   68    Aldermaston, Berkshire.           B c1843
Alfred Ernest      son   unm   30   Mile End      Travelling Musician    B c1879
Florence Maud      dau   unm   29   Mile End      Cook in dining rooms B c1882

If  this Alfred Ernest Mathew (Street Musician not Travelling Musician) is the Alfred Ernest Matthew who married Lillie Connah in 1905 why is he shown as unmarried on the 1911 census?
Not impossible but it does raise the question.

Cheers
Guy

[jupiter1]

Do you have a copy of this marriage or are you assuming this is the correct Lillie?
Is Lillie’s address given as Jupps Road?
Do the fathers’ names tie in?
Do you know when Lillie Connah moved to “London”?
ErrorSPAM REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.]Yes I do have a copy of the marriage.
Yes, Jupps Rd.
Yes, fathers name ties in.
Just before the 1901 census.[/color][/color]


What is you source for Vickie, is this a family story? Are you certain that any child was a girl?
There is a Alfred Victor Mathew showing on the deaths register June 1906, West Ham, 4a, 15
Lillie was my maternal grand mother. She talked on occasions about her daughter Vickie.
Alfred Victor not the person that married Lillie. My Mathew is…. 
Albert Ernest      
   Born   31-July- 1879 at Mile End. Living at 20 South Grove, Mile End.
   Married   Lillie CONNAH c1905/4 at Stepney
   Children   None confirmed. Probably Victoria, (Vickie ?).
Died   1943/3 at Stepney ref 1C100 age 64. Was living at 16 South Grove Mile end at the time of the taking of the 1939 electrol roll.
   Occupation    Travelling musician, later Ships pantryman.


What makes you think they were living as a bigamously married couple?
There is a marriage on FreeBMD for
Marriages Jun 1919
Connah, Lillie, Fleming, St. Geo. H. Sq., 1a, 1293
Yes, that marriage is to Wlm Hnry, see below.
At 1911 census Lillie Shown as married to Wlm Hnry. Devoice not available to "commoners" in 1911. Albert E didn't die until 1943.
Lillie married Wlm Hnry 1919 bigamously and went on to have a son in 1920.


If  this Alfred Ernest Mathew (Street Musician not Travelling Musician) is the Alfred Ernest Matthew who married Lillie Connah in 1905 why is he shown as unmarried on the 1911 census?
Not impossible but it does raise the question.
Lillie, and presumably Alfred, (possibly in collusion), were both very liberal with the truth.
I and my parents lived with Lillie and Wlm Hnry for over 14 years.
Most of the info that I have was confirmed very shortly after Wlm Hnry's funeral.

[nanny jan]

"At 1911 census Lillie Shown as married to Wlm Hnry. Devoice not available to "commoners" in 1911. Albert E didn't die until 1943."


Divorce was available;  my 2xgt.aunt got a divorce in 1904, she was considered as a "poor person" by the legal system and no fees to pay (I think).

[dawnsh]

we've been here before

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=485988.0

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=741007.0

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728531.0

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=687481.0

[KGarrad]

Isn't it damned annoying when posters kindly omit to mention that they have posted on the same subject before?!

Another RC'er added to my list of people I refuse to help in future.

[Marmalady]

"At 1911 census Lillie Shown as married to Wlm Hnry. Devoice not available to "commoners" in 1911. Albert E didn't die until 1943."


Divorce was available;  my 2xgt.aunt got a divorce in 1904, she was considered as a "poor person" by the legal system and no fees to pay (I think).

I agree
My grandmother's cousin got divorced in 1905 -- she also came under whatever the legal classification is that meant she did not have to pay legal fees