Two Charles COE/Elizabeth families in NSW from 1850's

[Tracey Asteroid]

I'll start with the easy sentence: My husband's ggg grandparents are Sophia COE and John EVANS.

This is what I "think" I know right now:
Charles COE (b.1803) was married (no date) to Hannah GRIFFIN (b.1791) in England. They had a daughter Hannah Henrietta COE in 1829. In 1829 Charles was convicted of larceny and sentenced to life. He was transported to Australia arriving in 1830 on the "Katherine Stewart Foster".
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/coe/charles/72941
A publicly available family tree lists Charles' parents as John COE (1773-1837) and Mary PARSONS (1772-1862) though I have no corroborating evidence for this. (A post on Roots Web suggests his parents were Charles and Jane).

Now Elizabeth STANLEY (b.1777) was married (no date) to Daniel MCGUINNESS (1781-1817), and convicted and transported in 1817 two months after Daniel's death. She arrived in Australia on the "Friendship" in 1818, with her son Thomas MCGUINNESS (b. 1810) and daughter Elizabeth MCGUINNESS (b. 1813).
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/macginnis/elizabeth/68761

Elizabeth MCGUINESS (nee STANLEY) died in 1832 in Sydney. Her daughter Elizabeth MCGUINESS married Richard PEARCE the same year. Elizabeth and Richard had 4 or 5 children
Four listed in this blog: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f57.html#f1040
Elizabeth PEARCE (1832-1849)
Richard PERACE (1834-1886)
Mary Ann PEARCE (1836-1914)
Robert PEARCE (1838-1841)
A fifth child mentioned here: http://australianroyalty.net.au/individual.php?pid=I31208&ged=purnellmccord.ged
Isabell PEARCE (1833-unknown)

It has been suggested that the death of her husband Richard PEARCE in 1839, quickly followed by the death of her youngest child in 1941, led Elizabeth PEARCE (nee MCGUINESS) to flee Sydney.
Around this same time, Charles COE was being released from Bathurst Goal (more info about his ups and downs from
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-03/1175264862 )
and somehow the two met and became involved around 1843/44 in Berrima NSW.

Together they had at least seven children (listed on this blog http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f25.html#f1041 )
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) no spouse
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) no spouse
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
George COE (1861 twin -1938) no spouse
Rachael COE (1861 twin -1935) no spouse

But a post on Roots Web (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-03/1175264862) lists:
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) married Elizabeth PARKER (nee HAMBLIN)
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) married Sissy DARGAN
George COE (1854-unknown) married Eliza COOPER
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
No Twin
Rachael COE (1861 -1935) married Thomas BOWMAN

To confuse the issue, there was apparently another Charles COE/Elizabeth couple having children around this same time (from this post: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-03/1175221979)
Eliza A COE b. 1854 Bourke
Clara COE b. 1855 Gulgong
Terese COE b.1856 Mudgee
William J COE b.1857 Mudgee
Robert David COE b.1859 Mudgee
Elizabeth COE b. 1860 Bathurst
Frederick COE b. 1863 Bathurst
Clara COE b. 1864 Bathurst

Which may (or may not) match up with this family (http://nis.wikidot.com/coe) as the offspring of Charles COE (http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/coe/charles/90048) and Elizabeth PHILLIPS:
Charles COE (1853-1928) married Elizabeth PARKER
Clara COE (1855-1856)
Theressa COE (1856-1846) no spouse
William COE (1857-1887)
Robert COE (1858-unknown)
Elizabeth COE (1861-1946) married James SOORLY then Nicholas BUGDEN
Frederick COE (1862-1863)
Clara COE (1864-1864)
Hannah COE (1865-1865)

To confuse things more, it appears that both Charles COE’s died in the Goulburn area, and both Charles COE’s left a wife and one child behind in England, so they did not marry their Australian partners.

I am too tired to try and figure this out right now, but hopefully if we keep picking at it, the truth will become clearer.
Sorry for making you read all that.

I have mentioned the EVANS family before here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=747737.msg5952163#msg5952163

[Tracey Asteroid]

My question is, of course, who belongs to who and where?
I think I need to do two separate family trees!

[Neil Todd]

I have absolutely No idea why you are even reading all that claptrap that everyone else has done, which by the way is incorrect, at least as to the parents and date of birth of Sophia COE.

There is one listing for the birth of a Sophia COE in NSW indexes 1840-1860 and that is in 1852? The parents are John and Frances? Ref # 718/1852 V1852718 52. According to the index they had only one child? There is NO marriage listed on the index for this couple.

There are two marriages SAME YEAR for a Sophia COE 1869 at DUBBO NSW to John EVANS Ref # 2202/1869  also one in Newcastle NSW for a Second Sophia COE in 1869 to a William MOWLL? ref 2985/1869. The Indexes only show a Marriage for a Jane COE at Milton in 1886 to a Kerry HAPGOOD ref # 7398/1886. I cannot see any other

I have found it is best to start with what you know and then go back, not start with with what someone else thinks they know and go forward

you probably need to buy a cert or two or a transcription same to either rule in or rule out certain characters.

There are definitely TWO Charles COE's as one was having a child in Mudgee 1856 while another was having on in Goulburn 1856 Both have a partner Elizabeth the mother's of the children, not unusual.

Neil

[Tracey Asteroid]

Thanks Neill.

So far I have been working with the theory that Jane had the name PEARCE on her birth certificate, since that was the married name her mother was still using.

There was a birth in 1844 for Jane PEARCE (father unknown) reg # 1788/1844 V18441788 28
I suppose it is actually possible that Charles was not her father, if this even is the right Jane.

I have found nothing for Sophia's birth, though a Sophia COE definitely lived and died. Her marriage to John EVANS in Dubbo in 1869 has her named as Sophia COE. Her second marriage to Elijah OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1890 has her listed as Sophia EVANS. Her death certificate lists her as Sophia OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1897, parents Elizabeth and Charles...which only means that the person reporting her death knew Sophia's parents as Elizabeth and Charles.

[majm]

I agree with Neil,  don't try to work from ancestors to the more recent generations.   You need to work back to the ancestors.  When the family members are NSW based, then your research can focus on the holdings of:
a) NSW State Records Office
b) NSW State Library
c) NSW Births, Deaths, Marriages

Charles COE, per the ship Katherine Stewart Forbes of 1830 was tried at Essex Quarter Sessions, and received a Life sentence in April 1829 for Picking Pockets.  His Conditional Pardon shows his native place as Camberwell, and his trade or calling as Groom & Hawker. It also shows he was born in 1803, stood 5 ft 4 inches, with dark ruddy complexion, black hark, dark hazel eyes.  He had a large scar or cut in the shape of a Y on the back of head.


He received two tickets of leave.  Here is the NSW State Records online index that supports that.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/indexes-to-convict-records 

29 May, 1839  (reel 933)
39/0932, Allowed to remain in the district of Bathurst.  However, there was a colonial charge, Bathurst Quarter Sessions, August 1839, Forgery, but by 1845 (see next item) the ToL was restored. 

1845 (reel 955)
(21 DSecember 1844) 45/0259 Allowed to remain in the district of Goulburn

1850
50/197 He received a Conditional Pardon  (reel 793)
The recommendation for that CP is also at NSW SR (reel 798)

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/research-topics/convicts/convicts

Are you aware of any connection to Paul COE 
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/coe-paul-joseph-9776


JM

[majm]

Hi there,

Thanks Neill.

So far I have been working with the theory that Jane had the name PEARCE on her birth certificate, since that was the married name her mother was still using.

There was a birth in 1844 for Jane PEARCE (father unknown) reg # 1788/1844 V18441788 28
I suppose it is actually possible that Charles was not her father, if this even is the right Jane.

I have found nothing for Sophia's birth, though a Sophia COE definitely lived and died. Her marriage to John EVANS in Dubbo in 1869 has her named as Sophia COE. Her second marriage to Elijah OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1890 has her listed as Sophia EVANS. Her death certificate lists her as Sophia OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1897, parents Elizabeth and Charles...which only means that the person reporting her death knew Sophia's parents as Elizabeth and Charles.

Do you have that actual record for Jane, or is this just the information gleaned from the online index?   You see, it is not a birth record, but a record of a baptism.  You will not find a birth certificate,  as birth certificates commenced in NSW in March 1856.   

So the Early Church Record you find indexed at NSW BDM online index is NOT indexing a birth certificate.   The index may be referring to a baptism for a lass named Jane who may have been an adult, or a child, or she may have been a baby. Yes, it is likely it is for a baby, but it is NOT confirmed until you have accessed the document, not just the index.   I can tell you that Volume 28 is for Church of England baptisms.   http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/volumes-1-123-1/volumes-1-123

It may well be for the following lass:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHN-B8K
and
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDB-QQ8

(Jane born 26 June 1844, baptised in the Appin Parish, 21 July 1844), daughter of Elizabeth PEARCE, father's name NOT indexed) 

May I please mention that the actual parish register may well have a margin note of the (putative) father's name. 

Do you have NSW BDM marriage for Sophia in 1869 and the 1890 one, are you sure from those two documents that the bride is the same person each time?  I would expect both certificates to have blanks in several sections.   NSW BDM's own webpage notes that their holdings are not complete for some marriages 1856-1895 (ish).   But the 1869 document should give you the denomination, the witness names, and other vital clues to help your own research determine the details recorded on the parish register for that marriage.   Here is a thread I did up to help RChatters overcome those elusive blanks.
 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html   

JM

[Neil Todd]

Re Sophia COE, most people don't know where or when they were born, they were too young to know. They find out off their parents, or a sibling if they knew. If she was an only child and she didn't know her parents for any of many reasons then she was up the creek without the paddle so to speak. She didn't know her age, or where or when born, this did happen back then and someone else, SKS as referred to on here, took over the rearing, hopefully. This could have been another family member IE Charles COE. She perpetuated this on any marriage cert if ever one for the right Sophia born 1852 not 1848. This is not to say that Charles COE was not having children to one or more "partners" he could also have fathered two children in one year, for that much many, many more!! Please don't try and do all the tree in one sitting. Only do the direct lines first, just add siblings in pencil and add them later when you KNOW you have the line correct.

Most family trees have accidental errors, if you copy them, your tree has them too.

Neil

[Dundee]

Together they had at least seven children (listed on this blog http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f25.html#f1041 )
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) no spouse
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) no spouse
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
George COE (1861 twin -1938) no spouse
Rachael COE (1861 twin -1935) no spouse

Rachel/Rachael died in 1935 and was buried at the Botany Cemetery with her husband Thomas BOWMAN.  The burial record gives her age as 76 and this may be her birth:

6510/1859
CHO,   RACHEL
CHARLES & ELIZABETH
at CARCOAR

There is no consecutive registration number for another child that might be a twin.

http://www.esmp.net.au/search-map-facility/cemetery-search

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162527941

Debra 

[Tracey Asteroid]

Together they had at least seven children (listed on this blog http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f25.html#f1041 )
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) no spouse
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) no spouse
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
George COE (1861 twin -1938) no spouse
Rachael COE (1861 twin -1935) no spouse

Rachel/Rachael died in 1935 and was buried at the Botany Cemetery with her husband Thomas BOWMAN.  The burial record gives her age as 76 and this may be her birth:

6510/1859
CHO,   RACHEL
CHARLES & ELIZABETH
at CARCOAR

There is no consecutive registration number for another child that might be a twin.

http://www.esmp.net.au/search-map-facility/cemetery-search

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162527941

Debra 

Thanks Debra,
I was about to give up on the twin theory. The only George COE I can find born in that decade was George COE died 1838 in Tamworth (reg#19939). His head stone puts his age at 84 so an estimated birth year of 1854.... but no birth details so can not check parent names or place of birth (yet).

I have found NOTHING on Rachael COE. But if her name was mis-spelt, that would explain a lot.

I am in contact with a lady that is a descent of one of the PEARCE daughters, who has a copy of Elizabeth COE (nee PEARCE, nee MCGUINNESS) death certificate. If she is kind enough to share a copy with me, then I can sort of confirm which children she had that the death informant knew of.

In the mean time, I need to start saving up pennies to buy all these birth/death certificates.

Thanks for the info about the baptism records Majm.

Tracey