Author Topic: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920  (Read 3304 times)

Offline belindy

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Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« on: Friday 17 June 16 06:57 BST (UK) »
If a child is born to an unwed teenage mother and is then brought up by the grandparents, would the child necessarily be adopted?
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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #1 on: Friday 17 June 16 07:14 BST (UK) »
Formal, legal, adoption only came in on 1st January 1927 (In England & Wales).

So it would have been an informal adoption - no legal paperwork involved.

ADDED:
Apologies! :-[
I answered your post almost as soon as I got out of bed this morning, and failed to notice it was on an Australia board!
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Offline majm

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #2 on: Friday 17 June 16 07:18 BST (UK) »
Hi Belindy,

You have posted on the Australia Board, so I am guessing you are referring to a child born in one of the Australian States or Territories.  I am not familiar with the various adoption processes in any of the other states or territories, but I am aware of the historic processes in NSW.

No, if a child was born in NSW in 1920, (whether mum was an unmarried teenager or otherwise) and raised by their Grandparents, there would not have been any reason for that child to be formally adopted by their grandparents, or by any person who raised that child. Grandparents in NSW, even today,  raise their grandchildren, without any need for formal adoption processes to occur.   

Formal adoption commenced in NSW, Australia in December 1923.

JM
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Offline belindy

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #3 on: Friday 17 June 16 07:38 BST (UK) »
Thank you.
Yes this was in Sydney around 1918.
Mum would have been 53 when the child was born so I thought maybe the child was born to an older sibling.
Barnes-London
Goodin-Norfolk, NZ
Goodfellow-Salisbury, London
Hanham-Essex, Dorset, Stratford, NZ
Samways-London, NZ, Australia
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Brown-Northumberland
Pegum-Ireland, NZ
Isherwood-Liverpool, NZ, Fiji
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Chitty
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Offline majm

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #4 on: Friday 17 June 16 08:09 BST (UK) »
Well, it is not long now until 2018, and then any member of the general public can purchase the birth certificate from the NSW BDM, without needing to provide any identification.   If your person of interest married in NSW, and the marriage occurred more than 50 years ago, you could consider obtaining an official transcription of that registration to see the first hand information the person gave about themselves, and their parents.  If they were not yet 21 years of age when marrying, then a responsible adult would be required to give consent.  That person, including their relationship to the bride/groom is usually recorded on the registration. 

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline belindy

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #5 on: Friday 17 June 16 09:50 BST (UK) »
I can only hope she was indeed born in 1918 :D

Rose Margaret FRANCIS's marriage certificate has her age at 26 in 1947 and her death notice has her at 84 in 2003 so we really won't know her real birthday until the records are 100 years old.

She doesn't appear on her mother's(Rose Margaret FRANCIS nee ISHERWOOD) death certificate even though she lists the elder Rose Margaret as her mother on her marriage certificate.

In the elder Rose Margaret's death notice the younger Rose Margaret is mentioned as her daughter.
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Goodin-Norfolk, NZ
Goodfellow-Salisbury, London
Hanham-Essex, Dorset, Stratford, NZ
Samways-London, NZ, Australia
Clifton-Kent, NZ
Brown-Northumberland
Pegum-Ireland, NZ
Isherwood-Liverpool, NZ, Fiji
Norris-NZ
Milligan-Scotland, NZ
Jennison-Yorkshire, NZ
Chitty
Green-Liverpool, NZ, Fiji
Fulcher/Fulshire-Norfolk
Budd-Sussex, NZ
Hilder-Sussex
Heyman-London
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Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #6 on: Friday 17 June 16 11:19 BST (UK) »

Can you identify death of Rose Margaret FRANCIS nee Isherwood on the NSW death Index please. Is it the 1926 death?      Who is the informant.

This is marriage for older woman?
9120 / 1906 FRANCIS Thomas   m. ISHERWOOD Rose  @ Sydney

This is marriage of younger woman?
1633 / 1947 FRANCIS Rose Margaret   m.  SHARPE Walter    @ Petersham




Offline majm

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #7 on: Friday 17 June 16 12:24 BST (UK) »
Hi,

May I explain why she is not listed on her mother's dc.    I will probably be a tad long winded in the explanation.

Firstly, in NSW, it is the funeral director who arranges for the information to be gathered together, and it is the funeral director who forwards the paperwork to the NSW BDM.  They do this in a formal way. 

On the historic certificates you can see the way things were done in that era, in the particular jurisdiction that governs those documents.  In Australia each of our states and territories have their own legislative authority to set their own laws, regulations and practices.   So my answers relate to NSW BDM ways, and the historic death certificates.

So you see, the funeral director is responsible for the funeral service, and for the paperwork.  So when the funeral director is meeting with the family, they organise together the order of service, the suitable date, the eulogy, the family members will each help each other with their own grief, and help with the paperwork, and one family member usually becomes the 'informant' - the person who provides answers to questions about the deceased's family members.   One of the questions that the informant was required to answer relates to children of the marriage.   It was actually a difficult question in those times.   Thinking about it ...  The question asked was not "how many children", nor was it "what are the names and ages of the children";  in fact it was an intrusive question. 

So the question asked was 'what are the names and ages of the children of the marriage'.  So if the person had not ever formally married, but had several children, in a strict sense, none of those children were eligible to be named as children of the marriage.   In the same way,  if a child was born prior to a marriage, it was possible that the funeral director in preparing the paperwork to forward to the NSW BDM did not include a child born before the deceased had become a married woman. 

So, it depended on how the funeral director asked the question, and who the funeral director actually asked, as to how accurate/reliable the information recorded on the death registration became.  So, for example, when I look at the death registration for one particular family member of mine,  I can see that there's an entire marriage and three children who are not included in the information on that dc.   To me, it is simply that the informant did not provide the information (either did not know, or did not know how to tell the funeral director).   Perhaps the informant was distracted, or more likely was grieving and needed more time to give all the details.

I hope this long winded explanation helps.  The NSW BDM system now allows for the deceased's Children to be included, regardless of whether the deceased was married or not.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Grandparents bring up grandchild 1920
« Reply #8 on: Friday 17 June 16 13:22 BST (UK) »

"..I can only hope she was indeed born in 1918
Rose Margaret FRANCIS's marriage certificate has her age at 26 in 1947"

Why would you be looking for a birth 1918 if the marriage record suggests 1921?